Is Dispensationalism Elitist?

Changing the subject Ed....I have noticed that whenever things get too tough and there are no answers, several things happen.

1) It gets suddenly quiet.
2) The big guns come out swinging.
3) Or, the subject gets changed.

 

For Christmas 1966 I got a copy of
DISPENSATIONAL TRUTH (Larkin, 1918)
by Clarence Larkin
The subtitle is "God's Plan and
Purpose in the Ages". Notice he does not
list Revelation 4:1, the "rapture" of John
as a type of the rapture of the Church.
(see "Types and ANti/types, page 153-155)

 

Again, no CAUSAL LINK BETWEEN MACDONALD AND DARBY HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED! The fact that he may have talked with her proves nothing!

"who was influenced by Darby, who knew MacDonald and Irving...... "

I have some friends who are lesbians. I have talked with them at length about many things. Two of them are good friends, does than mean I have homosexual tendencies?

 

Ed,

Certainly you understand that since he was post-Darby, he could not have come up with those ideas from the study of the Word of God. He had to get it from Darby!

 

I had most all the books the Watchtower put out because I used them as a starting point of which they could not refute.

However, with dispensationalism, which book do you read? There are SO many different views. I refuse to set myself up for indoctrination of something that I can quite readily see from just the postings on this board alone are not grounded in scripture and arose from HIGHLY suspect individuals and at a time span of about 40 years when much frenzie about end times took place.

 

Luke 12:48 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
But the one who did not know, and did things deserving
of blows, will be beaten lightly.
Much will be required of everyone who has
been given much. And even more will be expected
of the one who has been entrusted with more.

This statement by Jesus is the foundation upon which
the Doctrine of Dispensation is based.

 

Strange, but 95% of the history of the development
of the doctrine of the postribulational ONLY
rapture/resurrection has taken place since i was
saved in April 1952. All the history of
the postribulational ONLY rapture/resurrection
among Baptists has taken place since i was saved.
Please don't tell me that the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection in the new doctrine on the
block. I was a Christian all the time that
the postribulational ONLY rapture/resurrection was
being developed among Fundamental Baptists.
Thank you.

 

That is not true. You know he visited her! What for tea?

It doesn't mean you don't either!

 

ENJOY THE READING LARRY! How is it you make these statements if you went to seminary school? </font>[/QUOTE]I make these statements because they are true. That's not rocket science. You can say dispensationalism is wrong. You cannot legitimately say it has no scriptural support and you cannot legitimately say it is a "modern invention." That simply isn't true in either case. Again, you are confusing the formalization of the ideas that Darby did with the actual ideas themselves. You know, going to seminary does wonders for you. It certainly educated me and I learned much about these things. It is unfortunate that others have not had the same experience. They would do well to learn, whether in seminary or not.

You guys keep discussing Darby and MacDonald. Why not discuss Scripture? That is really the important thing. This Darby/MacDonald deal is a diversion from the real issues.

 

Pastor Larry: "You guys keep discussing Darby and MacDonald. Why not discuss Scripture? That is really the important thing."

Amen, Brother Pastor Larry -- Preach it!

 

Larry,

I believe these were your words? Now, when you say stuffl like this, we give you evidence.

So, maybe you don't like the evidence?

Once again...

Uuuh!!! What was that about “THE EARLY WRITERS” (100-300 A.D.)

THE ANTICHRIST REIGNS FOR 3 ½ YEARS

Irenaeus…"'And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,' that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second [Epistle] to the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: 'And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming.'" (Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 3)

THE ANTICHRIST PERSECUTES THE SAINTS

Irenaeus…"And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: 'And in the midst of the week,' he says, 'the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.' Now three years and six months constitute the half-week." (Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 4)

CHRISTIANS ARE TO WAIT UNTIL THE ANTICHRIST COMPLETES HIS WAR ON THE CHURCH

Tertullian…"In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view, which 'the souls of the martyrs' are taught to wait for beneath the altar, whilst they earnestly pray to be avenged and judged: (taught, I say, to wait), in order that the world may first drink to the dregs the plagues that await it out of the vials of the angels, and that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; and that, after the casting of the devil into the bottomless pit for a while, the blessed prerogative of the first resurrection may be ordained from the thrones; and then again, after the consignment of him to the fire, that the judgment of the final and universal resurrection may be determined out of the books. Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world,..." (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XXV)

THE BEAST IS KILLED AFTER THE SAINTS ARE PERSECUTED

Hippolytus…"For this is meant by the little horn that grows up. He, being now elated in heart, begins to exalt himself, and to glorify himself as God, persecuting the saints and blaspheming Christ, even as Daniel says, 'I considered the horn, and, behold, in the horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things; and he opened his mouth to blaspheme God. And that horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them until the beast was slain, and perished, and his body was given to be burned.' (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 47)

UNTIL THE END OF THE 70TH WEEK, THE CHURCH IS PERSECUTED

Hippolytus…"That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains,..." (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)


CHRISTIANS ARE SAID “TO BE PERSECUTED IN THOSE DAYS”
…"For when Daniel said, 'I shall make my covenant for one week,' he indicated seven years; and the one half of the week is for the preaching of the prophets, and for the other half of the week that is to say, for three years and a half Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away. Behold, ye who love God, what manner of tribulation there shall rise in those days, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, no, nor ever shall be, except in those days alone. Then the lawless one, being lifted up in heart, will gather together his demons in man's form, and will abominate those who call him to the kingdom, and will pollute many souls." (Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXV)


Victorinus…"The little season signifies three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself trader Antichrist against the
Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1)

THE 2ND RETURN AND THE RESURRECTION ARE THE SAME EVENTS

"For in the last days false prophets shall be multiplied, and such as corrupt the word; and the sheep shall be changed into wolves, and love into hatred: for through the abounding of iniquity the love of many shall wax cold. For men shall hate, and persecute, and betray one another. And then shall appear the deceiver of the world, the enemy of the truth, the prince of lies, whom the Lord Jesus 'shall destroy with the spirit of His mouth, who takes away the wicked with His lips; and many shall be offended at Him. But they that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven;' and afterwards shall be the voice of a trumpet by the archangel; and in that interval shall be the revival of those that were asleep. And then shall the Lord come, and all His saints with Him, with a great concussion above the clouds, with the angels of His power, in the throne of His kingdom, to condemn the devil, the deceiver of the world, and to render to every one according to his deeds. 'Then shall the wicked go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous shall go into life eternal,' to inherit those things 'which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man, such things as God hath prepared for them that love Him;' and they shall rejoice in the kingdom of God, which is in Christ Jesus." (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book VII, Sec. II, XXXII)

 

Trailblazer,

So what? If he visited her and the talked about theolgy that does not prove he copied her! Her vision is quite brief. His writings are more extensive.

Regarding not reading it because you don't want to be poisoned that is pretty lame IMHO!

If you have never read any of them, then you can not really speak authoritatively can you? All you are doing is parroting what other anti-dispensationalists have said, and even that is somewhat limited.

I always try to read the very best presenters of two sides of an issue and THEN decide which is closest to the actual teaching of the Word of God.

I HAVE read DeMar, Chilton, Gentry, Allis, Mauro, Sproul, Gerstner, Mathison, Poythress, et al as well as Bock, Blasing, et al.who are progressive Ds. Were you even aware there was such a thing as PD?

Please get and read “Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth” by Scofield or “So There Really is a Difference” by Showers. Neither are very expensive, you could probably read Rightly Dividing in a couple of hours at the most. Showers is not really deep, but good for an easy read. Are you so unsure of your own theology that you are afraid to read another position?

My best friend is strong KJVP (preferred, as he calls it). He sounds like KJVO whenever we talk. Several summers ago we spent every spare moment of our family vacation week discussing and debating the issue (we all go together and have for years). Neither of us changed our position all that much. Your line of reasoning re MacDonald and Darby would DENY THAT POSSIBILITY! – That they might have talked without him “falling under the spell of her apostasy.”

CBTS,

How extensively have you actually read dispensational writers?

 

None of the THE EARLY WRITERS” (100-300 A.D.)
wrote anything that disagrees with my
pretribulation rapture/resurrection
understanding of the Holy Scripture.

I don't have time today to go into details
showing my statement is correct.

Trailblazer: "Changing the subject Ed.... "

I didn't change the subject. YOu do beleive that the
what was taught in Matthew 24:13 by Jesus is
eschatology, yes?

 

Trailblazer,

If you were able to resist JW's after reading their books, why not read Rightly Dividing and There is a Difference?


For CBTS, I would suggest Ryrie.


You guys got one I might have missed? Suggest one.


And of course Pastor Larry is right, the real authority is the Bible, but let's not be so narrow as to think that we or the ones who write from our side of the fence are the only ones with a brain!

 

Rjprince: "Just curious. How many of the CTs on this thread have actually read:
Alva McClain's Greatness of the Kingdom
C.I. Scofield's Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth
J. Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come
C.C. Ryrie's "The Basis of the Premillennial Faith", or revised "Dispensationalism Today"
Renald Showers "There Really is a Difference" - slightly lighter reading."

I have no idea what a "CT" might be???
I've read none of these books.

 

No thank you. I get enough dispy material on this board to last me for years to come. (and it's free!) I have no intentions of purchasing books that I believe Christ will be burning when he returns. I think he warns us about curiosity.

 

RJ,

Just as the JW's publish an abundance of material to further their false doctrine, Darby certainly was a prolific writer whose false doctrine is published in abundant supply also.

I think it most certainly shows that the "basic idea or thought" came from her. After all, it was only serveral months later that he began writing his version of the babblings.

 

Besides, he attended the meetings at Powerscourt (?) and he attended Irvings church I believe. (will have to dig through the papers again to make sure)

 

Ed,

CT - Covenant Theologian (Theology), as opposed to a Dispensationalist (ism). CT had its formal structuring about the same time as D. Ideas from both are traceable to the very early Christian writings. Though neither was very developed at such an early point in church history.

CT views all of the Bible, or Redemptive History, as some call it as being under the overall Covenant of Grace. They define their theology is those terms much as we define ours in terms of Dispensations.

Amils and postmils generally lean toward CT. Many embrace it wholeheartedly without even knowing what it is. Premils generally lean toward D.

Would suggest Showers book. Very good general treatment.

 

Trailblazer,

Your understanding of D is very limited at best. Maybe I will do a thread with a very general statement and summary of some basic D teachings to see if you can respond directly to Scripture rather than just attacking Darby and Scofield.

If you want to attack them, why not get specific and point out some serious errors in their theology rather than just throw out all these generalizations. Lets talk BIBLE on the issues, not revisionist accounts presented by antiDs. And as you have already admitted, you have NOT GONE TO ANY OF THE DISPENSATIONALISTS THEMSELVES. That is a serious shortcoming in your analysis of their theology.