Ben1445
Well-Known Member
It is really the same thing.
I have never heard anyone say anything like what you just said. It is equivalent to “God hates the sinner and loves the sin.”
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Is God Patient With His Decree?
- Thread starter Baptizo
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I have never heard anyone say anything like what you just said. It is equivalent to “God hates the sinner and loves the sin.”
No, its that God has a righteous anger towards sins and sinners, as its a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
But you just said that
What is the difference between wickedness and the concept. From what I understand in Scripture, ultimately there will no longer be concept of wickedness.
I’ll wait for eternity for confirmation if I must.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I do not have give different meanings to words or twist God's word to fit a man-made philosophy.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That was not my question. I asked if you hold to any of those.
divine determinism, the DoG/TULIP, the LBCF or WCF
To say none of them teach direct strict determination just shows that you do not know what they say or you are just ignoring what they say.
You indeed do.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Examples please. If we are going to get anywhere, it has to be a little more constructive of a conversation. Give something to build on.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It's like throwing rocks in a pond to rile up the water. It would seem he wants to make baseless accusations just to cause a distraction from the problems found in the C/R view.
John 6:37-39,65
John 17:9
Mt 11:27
Romans 8:29-30
Ephesians 1:4-5,11
Romans 9 :11-16
2Tim 1:9
Acts 13:48
For starters.........
Communicate.
They would rather have their teeth pulled out with a pair of vice grips than have a real conversation.
They know they've lost before they begin! That's why you can't communicate with them.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
They seem to be under the impression that the bible has to agree with their errant calvinist views.
They deny clear scripture because it does not support their DoG/TULIP.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Jesus said in John 10 that “My sheep hear My voice, I call them by name, they follow Me”
They are His sheep BEFORE He calls them.
He calls them by NAME… a specific call to specific people.
They follow Him… not some follow or many follow, but everyone called follows Him.
To others Jesus said “You do not believe because you are not of My sheep” (The “of” shows possession… ie belonging to a group)
He does not say you are not My sheep because you don’t believe… Jesus said they don’t believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.
Can the words mean anything else?
Peace to you
Thanks for posting this list of verses. It looks as if they figure in on this topic.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
When they believe they are His sheep. The focus of the passage is not the sheep. It is the Shepherd. I don’t see anything about non sheep not being chosen. What I do see is that those who are followers of Christ will recognize Him when he calls them to follow. The following that sheep do at that point is not salvation, it is obedience. Salvation is what makes them His. They are bought with His blood. Without the blood applied they are not His and I don’t see them as elect in this passage. Not even by your definition of elect.
When Jesus said this, He had not yet given His life on the cross. At that moment in time there were people who followed Him. All through history there have been some who seek the Lord. As Jesus spoke in the present day He was saying that salvation comes through Him and those who believe in Him follow Him.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
When you study what Christ said in context you will arrive at the proper understanding of the text.
Verses can and have been pulled out of context to support a particular view but that is not the proper way to study the bible as it will lead to misunderstanding and error.
Note in the illustration that the sheep that Jesus knows are already His own. These are ones that know Him or in human terms are people that have trusted in Him. Thus He would know their names and they would follow the one they have trusted in. Which is just what the text tells us.
Because they did not understand the illustration that Jesus had used He then went on to expland on it telling them that He was "the door" that anyone could enter through, [vs 9] "the good shepherd" that gave life to the sheep, [vs 11] those that trusted in Him.
He goes further and tells us that He has other sheep who will hear His voice and responded in trust. Not all that hear His voice will believe not because they cannot but because they will not "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me." [vs 25]
Again He contrasts those that hear His voice and reject Him and those that hear it and believe. {vs 26-27}
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
That is not what the passage says. In fact, the passage says the opposite of what you stated.
As someone else stated, if we cannot agree on the meaning of words, it’s impossible to dialog.
I appreciate your posts, but this is not a fruitful discussion.
Peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I did need a lecture on theology from someone that believes many are saved having never heard the gospel.
Please… just don’t respond to my posts. I have no intention of engaging with your comments.
Peace to you
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You may not need a lecture but you obviously need someone to point out your lack of understanding of the word of God
You don't want to engage because I point out the errors of your man-made theology.
You pull verses out of context which leads to your misunderstanding and misuse of the text.
Well since many OT saints were saved prior to hearing the gospel it would seem you have a bit of a logic problem. Let alone you do not seem to think God can save whom He decides to save.
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