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Featured Is God Racist

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AustinC, Sep 21, 2020.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Quantrill wrote:
    If I am not mistaken it was me who made the statement that God and Christ were racist. I gave Scripture to support my statement, I make no apology for it. I have no problem with being racist, or with God being racist.

    In America 'racism', slavery, hate, inequality, bias, are identified as 'evil'. Thus American Christians must bow to this PC ideology. This means God must not support slavery, hate, bias, or inequality. This means they must interpret the Bible in light of their acceptance of this PC ideology.

    So they have, and so they do.

    I do not base my beliefs on Calvinism. I base them on Scripture.

    Quantrill
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    It is important that we define racism.
    Oxford Reference:
    "The inability or refusal to recognize the rights, needs, dignity, or value of people of particular races or geographical origins. More widely, the devaluation of various traits of character or intelligence as ‘typical’ of particular peoples."

    Racism - Oxford Reference.

    Is God a racist?
     
  3. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    No. Thats really where the discussion should end.
     
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  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That is a weighted and biased “one size fits all” definition.

    racism
    noun
    rac·ism | \ ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi- \
    1: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

    2a: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another

    b: a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles

    Merriam-Webster Dictionary
     
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I am aware that everyone will rush forward with a knee-jerk denial of even the suggestion that God MIGHT be racist, but I am willing to turn to scripture, see what it says and let the chips fall where so ever they may.

    So here are some verses on race to ponder and discuss:

    • [Ezr 9:2 NASB] 2 "For they have taken some of their daughters [as wives] for themselves and for their sons, so that the holy race has intermingled with the peoples of the lands; indeed, the hands of the princes and the rulers have been foremost in this unfaithfulness."
    • [Zec 9:6 NASB] 6 And a mongrel race will dwell in Ashdod, And I will cut off the pride of the Philistines.
    • [Mar 7:26 NASB] 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter.
    • [Act 7:19 NASB] 19 "It was he who took shrewd advantage of our race and mistreated our fathers so that they would expose their infants and they would not survive.
    • [Jas 3:7 NASB] 7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race.
    • [1Pe 2:9 NASB] 9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR [God's] OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I was trying to find a Greek or Hebrew word that was common to the english word translated as "race" in the NASB. I couldn't find anything. Here's the KJV's translation for your verses. I need to look at Strong's to see the Hebrew/Greek word used.

    Ezra 9:2
    For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.
    Zechariah 9:6
    And a bastard shall dwell in Ashdod, and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines.
    Mark 7:26
    The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
    Acts 7:19
    The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.
    James 3:7
    For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
    1 Peter 2:9
    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    Notice the KJV has a different English word for each highlighted word you had as race. It is my thought that the word "race" is a newly coined word created by white Europeans who held a superiority complex and created an artificial distinction not stated by God.
    I do not have the time to go over each word as expressed by Strong's concordance so more work needs to be done here.

    I am reticent to state that God is racist as it seems to me this is a human distinction that God does not make.

    Perhaps @Quantrill can share his definition of racism and the verses he would use to ascribe God as a racist.
     
  7. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Is race a human distinction that God did not make? How did the races of men come into existence if God did not make them? Many will say climate has been the creator of the races of man. If one wants to believe that man evolved into various races, that would be an answer. I don't.

    God's question to Jeremiah in (Jer.13:23), "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots", is proof to me that God is the Creator of mans racial distinction. God asked Job similar questions to make the point that only God has the power to do such things. See all of (Job 38-41). In (Job 41:7) God asked, "Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons", in speaking of the creature leviathan. So, just like with the leopard spots of (Jer. 13:23), God is Who created them. Is the Ethiopian different, No. Only God makes the distinctions in man that divide.

    So, the first question one must answer to their satisfaction, does not concern a definition of racism. It concerns whether or not God made the various races and divisions found in man. Did He or did He not?

    If He did not, and race came about just through climate, culture, or whatever, then it really bears no meaning to God. But, if He did, then you must ask why He did.

    Quantrill
     
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  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    "Race" may be a newly coined word, but the concept (biblically speaking) is not. At its core is just the concept of "us and them", that there is some distinction between one group and another that allows one to be identified as belonging to some distinct grouping of people.

    God created a "chosen" people that was immediately distinct from the rest of humanity that was not "Israel". The Law was given to Israel, the Law was not given to the rest of mankind. The Temple was open to Israel, the Temple was not open to the rest of mankind.

    From the New Testament, we have several references to people of every "tribe and tongue and people and nation" (in various order).
    • What is a "tribe"? (G5443) φυλή phylḗ, foo-lay'; from G5453 (compare G5444); an offshoot, i.e. race or clan:—kindred, tribe.
    • What is a "tongue"? (G1100) γλῶσσα glōssa, gloce-sah'; of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):—tongue.
    • What is a "people"? (G2992) λαός laós, lah-os'; apparently a primary word; a people (in general; thus differing from G1218, which denotes one's own populace):—people.
    • What is a "nation"? (G1484) ἔθνος éthnos, eth'-nos; probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan):—Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
    Do any of these individually, or combinations of these collectively, carry the connotation of a "race" in the modern sense?
    Does scripture recognize the existence of people groups with common physical and cultural traits?

    I think that "Race" as a concept very much does exist in scripture. That is why I am willing to listen to a discussion on whether God deals equally with all "people groups" according to scripture.
     
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  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God makes skin pigmentation. God never made race. Race is a human method of separating by skin color.
    Adam and Eve were likely black, holding all the variations of skin pigmentation in their code. God chooses skin pigmentation according to his good will. Yet all are under the curse of the fall.
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    "Race" in the broadest cultural sense is defined by more than skin pigmentation. There may be people from Southern Europe (Italy and Greece), Southern Asia (India), Northern Africa (Morocco) and Central America (Nicaragua) that are all nearly the identical shade of tan-brown-bronze, but they come from radically different "cultures" and are not part of the same "people group". Likewise someone with pale skin that is Scandinavian, Inuit and Japanese are not the same "people group". Nor is a dark "Ethiopian" the same as a dark Australian Aborigine.

    Since LANGUAGE is one of the strongest defining factors of culture and making "a people" to be "a people", we can answer the origin of "people groups" from the Scripture:

    [Genesis 11:5-9 NKJV] 5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the LORD said, "Indeed the people [are] one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.​

    God created "Languages" and Languages define "Culture".
    This gets us part way there, but the issue of skin pigmentation is still unanswered.
     
  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure that your interpretation of the Ethiopian quite works. It seems more a statement of fact.
    • An Ethiopian cannot change the color of his skin, a leopard cannot change his spots and a sinner cannot stop sinning.

    If we accept your interpretation for the Ethiopian, then the message of scripture becomes a troubling:
    • God made the Ethiopian black, God made the leopard spotted and God made the sinner sin.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God can never act in any fashion against His very nature, so if racism is sin, God cannot approve nor practice it!
     
  13. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Interesting. What made Adam and Eve black? I mean, what do you base that on?

    But, you didn't answer my question. Did God make the various races of man?

    Quantrill
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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  15. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    I don't believe the issue of skin pigmentation is unanswered. (Jer. 13:23) If God didn't do it, who did? Someone more powerful than God?

    Quantrill
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I only meant "unanswered in my post".
    I did not mean to imply that it was unknowable.

    What of the consequence of the God causing race in (Jer. 13:23a) on (Jer. 13:23b)?

    "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots?
    [Then] you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.
    [Jeremiah 13:23 NASB]

    Is God also responsible for men's inability to do good?
    • God made the Ehtiopian black.
    • God made the leopard spotted.
    • God made men incapable of doing good.
     
  17. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Why is it troubling?

    That is quite a leap. The leopards spots are they way God created him. The leviathans skin of armour is the way God created him. The Ethiopians skin is the way God created him no matter when it occurred.

    Sinner involves man's, Adam's, decision.

    Quantrill
     
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  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Well, to be fair, salvation is "of the Jews" ( John 4:22 ).;)

    Isn't that "racism", if He pretty much ignored the entire world except for Israel and a few others for about 2,000 years prior to the Lord Jesus coming the first time?
    And then, in His grace and according to His purposes, He grafted in the Gentiles as a people?

    Right.
    I submit, gentlefolk ( and you all know how much I love my essays :Sneaky ),
    Who are we to define "racism", when there is only one "race", and many tongues, tribes and nations...
    Which were all one until the tower of Babel?

    No, the Lord is not a "racist".

    There are members of every background, color, language, tribe, size, shape, male and female among His children.
    I suggest that we all, as believers, sit back and think a bit about our modern definition of the "races" and where they came from:


    Pride.:(
     
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  19. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    How can race be defined exclusively by "color"?
    What color are "Africans"? What color are "White Europeans"? Is a Swede the same color as a Sicilian? Are they different races?

    God made the "languages". Language shapes cultural people groups. What is a "race"?
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that the point of the verse? The Ethiopan, the Leopard and the Sinner all have something in common.
    • They cannot change what they are.
    • God made them what they are.
    Those are VERY different commonalities.
     
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