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Featured Is God the author of Evil/Sin?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Miss E, Jul 27, 2020.

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  1. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    According to your Calvinist teacher(s), whom I am currently reading about via this enlightening criticism of your doctrines, you all teach that God predestines people to sin. Thus, aka, God makes people sin.

    You say God chooses people to be saved, so why would you not say that God chooses which person will sin?

    Is that not what you believe?

    In which case, doesn't that make God an Evil God who makes Evil happen in the world?

    That takes out the responsibility of men for their own action and saying that GOD causes the sin/evil in this world.

    So God caused the Holocaust. God caused 9/11. etc. etc.

    That is what ya'lls teachers teach. From what I have read.

    If you're wondering what book I'm reading it is this one:

    Against Calvinism : Rescuing God's Reputation From Radical Reformed Theology
    Author: Olson, Roger E.

    So, in conclusion, if you believe that, that God makes man sin (as well as make man choose to believe upon His son), you are contradicting scripture that says God is Love, God is good and Holy.

    Note, that when I say that you say that God makes people sin, I am not saying that when God punishes people that is evil, no, that is Justice, and God is an all JUST God as well as an ALL GOOD God.

    Now let me hear your remarks and your defense of your very own belief and tell me how it makes sense and why you worship a God that (let's say), made that man kill your child or some other atrocious action and that that man did not commit that sin HIMSELF, by HIS OWN WILL, that God only KNEW about, but was able to use for His glory in his mysterious way, but at the same time, not FORCING that man to commit such a sin, but allowing it to happen for all things work for the good of those who Love God.

    Please know I am not pointing out these horrid views of Calvinism to condemn or humiliate those who hold onto those views, but to rebuke and correct and give a defense of the hope that I have in Jesus, whom I chose on my free will to follow.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We do not see God as being the author of Sin and Evil, nor does he force people to sin or reject Lord Jesus!
     
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  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Hello Miss E.
    So tell me what happened. Did God sit there wringing His celestial hands, saying, "How I wish I could stop it, but I'm just not as strong as these awful humans." Or did He say, "I would stop it, but I gave free will to these humans. It was a terrible mistake, but I promised and I can't go back on it now."
     
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  4. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Okay, then what does God DO in your eyes Yeshua? Because previously you told me that God chooses who is saved and who is not. So what's stopping you to say God chooses to make men sin or not?

    What do you believe? I'd like to know.
     
  5. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Definitely not the first choice. God gave Man FREE WILL to sin or to not. God CAN stop it, but he allows it to happen to make men accountable for their actions.

    And definitely not the second, because God makes no mistakes. But God, in His sovereign glory, can make all things, bad and good (that men choose to do good or bad), work together for the good of those who choose to love Him and make Him their Lord. :)

    Why don't you just fess up to the fact you believe in a God that makes evil happen?
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That is actually pretty Calvinistic. Well done! You're learning!
     
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  7. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Why are you mocking me when I am indeed not a Calvinist, but who promotes free will choice to all man kind. Why can't you believe that God still makes it all work for the good of those who love Him? Isn't that what the scripture even STATES?

    And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28)

    That's not a Calvinistic doctrine, yes, some make it out to be, but out of context and out of what the scripture meant for it to mean. :)

    Are you a Calvinist? Why are you attacking me? Why don't you just answer the question in the OP? Do you believe God makes evil happen or that man makes it happen but God allows it, but that doesn't make Him force anyone to do an evil action?

    Please answer and stop throwing around mocking and insults like an upset child. :rolleyes:
     
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  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. False. Full stop. No need to waste time reading any further.

    It would be like beginning a discussion with "Since those who believe that man has the Free Will to accept or deny Jesus Christ believe that they are saved by their personal holiness, good works and sinless perfection ... "
    Any discussion that begins that far out in the weeds, is never going to get back on the fairway, so aiming for the green is pointless.

    Take the penalty and start over.
     
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  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Holy Scripture teaches that God chooses people to be saved, and Holy Scripture does not teach that God chooses which person will sin. So we do not say it, because scripture does not say it and it is, therefore, likely not true. Remember "Calvinism" is really "Reformed" Theology, born out of the Reformation where the accumulated traditions of men were set aside as the Printing Press and Scripture in the language of the people made it possible for many to read what God actually said rather than trusting what Rome ordered Priests to tell them. "Sola Scriptura" (Scripture Alone) was a powerful force of the time and remains a cornerstone of the Gospel of Grace ("Reformed" and "Particular Baptist") communities of believers.


    No, it is not.

    Since that is not what we believe, the false conclusion only follows from the false assumption. God is not evil. God does not make evil happen. [Although God does send misfortune ... He said so himself.]



    Since the things that you are pointing out are untrue, you are actually bearing False Witness against other Christians by stating LIES about what we believe. You should apologize and read something like Ligonier Ministries to learn what we really do believe.

    Here is a good place to start:
    Is God equally active in causing the salvation of the elect and the damnation of the reprobate?
     
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  10. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    LOL! These are what your proclaimed Calvinists teach and believe! I'm going off what THEY have to say about it. What do YOU have to say in their defense or rebuttal, hm?

    And I Never said personal holiness/good works/sinless perfection gets you to heaven. DUMB! Grace given by God in the person of Jesus Christ whom we have to accept freely gets you into heaven. :p
     
  11. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    LOL I say again, I am taking all this from OTHER professed Calvinist teachers!!! It's not my fault you choose to ignore them, and if you do, I guess great, since you don't believe, but I"m sure there are SOME Calvinists who believe what I just posted which is in fact, factual, by other factual Calvinists who believe what I posted in the OP.

    check your facts jack
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Because you deserve a bit of gentle mocking because you haven't got the faintest idea what Calvinism is, and have not made any effort to find out other than reading a book by someone who is a blind guide and a dolt. Why not read what Reformed people actually say and think, and then decide whether you agree with it or not?
    It's a Biblical doctrine, and I believe it absolutely. Why don't you expound your understanding of the text and explain why you think it is inimical to Calvinism?
    Yes. I believe in definite atonement, and the five points of Reformed Theology.
    I'm not. I'm just teasing you very gently. If I attack you, you'll know the difference. ;)
    I'm interested to know why you think that Calvinism says that God is the Author of evil when all the Reformed confessions say the opposite. Is it because you have only read Roger Olsen and never read, for example, the Baptist 1689 Confession of Faith?
    For example:
    Chapter III. 'God hath [Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11] decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever come to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin [James 1:13-17; 1 John 1:5] nor hath fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the Creature, nor yet is the liberty, or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather [Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28; John 19:11] established, in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power, and faithfulness [ Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5] in accomplishing His decree.' The Scripture proofs are in the original.
    Discuss like a grown-up and I'll treat you like one.[/QUOTE]
     
    #12 Martin Marprelate, Jul 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
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  13. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    You shouldn't mock period. And the Bible says not to tease either. What does the proverb say?

    “Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, is the man who deceives his neighbor, and says, 'I was only joking! (Proverbs 26:18-19)

    I read who I choose to read, I don't want to waste time reading your false doctrine, all I'm pointing out is that you have CALVINISTS (i don't care what DEGREE they are) that say they believe in the OP i stated. What say you? If you don't agree, great! But where did this Calvinist get this nonsense from and how are you going to rebuke it as I am?
     
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Quote them directly. Give me a statement by a "proclaimed Calvinist" that I can look up and read for myself. R.C. Sproul (founder of Ligonier Ministries) is a "Calvinist", quote something from Sproul. Matt Slick (founder of CARM) is a "Calvinist", quote something from Matt Slick. The Westminster Confession of Faith, the Heidelberg Catechism and the London Baptist Confession are all sources for "Calvinist" statements of belief (if you must go to the 16th-17th Century). Charles Spurgeon is very readable if you want a 19th Century "Calvinist".

    Do not give me paraphrases from ANTI-Calvinists of what Calvinists believe. [Unless you want me to ask you why Free Will makes you think that you can save yourself without the need for Christ?] If only our opponents get to say what you believe, then I don't think you will like what the ANTI-Free Will authors say you believe.
     
  15. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    and I know Calvinism is a false doctrine, stating that God forces man to choose whether he believes upon His son or not. (which is ridiculous)

    Is THAT what you believe? Because if so, it is wrong and I heavily rebuke it.
     
  16. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Who said you can be saved without Christ? Christ saves you, but you have to accept Him. Duh :p
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Proverbs 26:5.
    There is a song by Bob Dylan, one line of which says, 'I'll know my song well before I start singing.' You would do well to take note of that. And now, what Calvinist? What nonsense? Do you think Roger Olsen is a Calvinist????
     
  18. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Look up the book yourself and read it. I have access to it via my online school. I gave the name and author. But some of those authors you just stated had some quotes in there that stated the OP above. I can't copy/paste but if you can't take a fellow Christian's word for it, then oh well. Believe in ignorance that your precious Calvinism is holy and good and right.
     
  19. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    I'm not a fool, since I post truthful/factual statements and it's not my fault you don't like to be pointed out to the folly of your doctrine(s).

    No, Roger Olsen is not a Calvinist, he is rebuking Calvinism. Why would I read something a Calvinist wrote? I've got the basic gist of your believes and I don't care to read any more out of context scriptures and lies on what my God does or doesn't do.
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    According to YOUR RULES, that doesn't matter. I told you that I don't believe what YOU say "Calvinists" believe (even though I am a Particular Baptist and a "Calvinist"). By YOUR RULES, only what a CALVINIST-HATER book says Calvinists believe matters. So the same rules must apply to "Free Will" as apply to "Calvinism". What you as a "Free Will" Christian believe does not matter any more than what I as a "Calvinist" Christian believe matters. The only thing that matters is what a FREE WILL-HATER book says that "Free Will" Christians believe matters.

    So please, stop trying to earn heaven with your personal holiness and just accept the free gift of a Sovereign God. I am only trying to help you and show you "Free Willers" the truth of the Bible. I just want to save you from the evil "Free Will Heresy". (See, I am just as sincere and concerned a Christian as you are.)
     
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