Is Headcoverings Important?

Marcia and Michelle,

Where does it say in the Bible that a womans hair consitutes her head covering?

If paul says that a woman must cover her head while praying, does that not count her hair which is a part of her head?

 

Been tring to say that here for several years. No one will ever listen. </font>[/QUOTE]That sounds like a good argument, but where does it specifically show that in the Bible?

 

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If paul says that a woman must cover her head while praying, does that not count her hair which is a part of her head?
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What naturally covers the head? Does the passage say to cover the hair or the head? If it says head, how then, can you say our hair "must" be covered? Why then does this very passage continue to talk about long hair on woman, and not on the man? Hair is what is being referred to, not a hat or some article of cloth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

For both ancient Jewish and Greco-Roman traditions shaving their hair was a punishment, intended as humiliation and thus discouragement of the life style of prostitution. Both cultures required the veiling of women out in public as a general practice. The ancient practice is virtually identical to the modern fundamentalist Islamic practice. Just having hair would never have counted as covering. That would only have meant they were "back in business." The head, including the face, had to be hidden from male view in order to be respectable, since only their husband was permitted to see them uncovered.

The only place where non-prostitute female practices of unveiled heads can be documented was in certain aristocratic Roman circles where extremely wealthy and powerful women went to elaborate lengths in wearing wigs etc. to inhouse social functions. There it was a symbol of weath and power enabling them to flaunt traditional custom, rather than seduction. Several ancient historians mock this practice with sarcastic comments that sometimes their hairdos were so tall and weighty that the women had trouble keeping balance while they walked. Evidently it is somewhat against this Roman custom that 1 Pet. 3:3-6 is written. Of course, the prostitute practice of going unveiled in public meant they carefully made up their hair as well, as a means of seduction of prospective male clients. 1 Peter may have this in mind more than the aristocratic circles. The loose fitting clothing styles limited the prostitutes ability to attract clients. Thus the exposed head was the primary appearance means, along with seductive speech.

 

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Both cultures required the veiling of women out in public as a general practice. The ancient practice is virtually identical to the modern fundamentalist Islamic practice. Just having hair would never have counted as covering. That would only have meant they were "back in business." The head, including the face, had to be hidden from male view in order to be respectable, since only their husband was permitted to see them uncovered.
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What do those religions and cultures have to do with what God has said to us? The reason the woman is to have her head covered is to honour her husband, and by honouring her husband, she is giving honour to the Lord. It has absolutely nothing to do with prostitution. God requires woman to have their heads covered as He intended them. Woman who shaved their heads, or cut their hair to look like a man is showing rebelliousness not only to their husbands (if they even had/have them) but to the Lord. God made the woman for the man from the man, and we are to honour him, as this is honouring to our Lord and how he created us to be. Living any other way, is rebellion, and brings dishonour to the husband, and ultimately to the Lord. It has NOTHING TO DO with the TRADITIONS OR CULTURE OF MAN. It has EVERYTHING to do with OBEDIANCE and HONOUR to the Lord.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Without seeing the previous verses, this verse is taken completely out of context. The previous verses are: But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. The order is: God is above Christ; Christ is above the man, and the man above the woman. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head (Christ).

The previous verses make it clear that the "head covering" is a symbol for headship. A man who prays without authority dishonors Christ. A women who does the same without her spouse's blessing dishonors her spouse. The examples become more clear when you take into consideration the customs of headwear at that time. It doesn't say men and women can't pray or prophesy, nor does it require or discourage men and women in their head attire. Since head attire customs today are not what they were then, the context of this verse is often difficult to discern. One thing, however, is clear. This verse is NOT intented to require women from keeping their heads covered.

To answer the question of the OP, a literal headcovering is not a matter of importantance in the non-Corinthian church. If a person wants to wear a headcovering (men or women), they are welcome to. If they do not want to, they are not so required.

 

Oh, but it does. The prostitutes had their heads shaved (1 Cor. 11:5). A woman who had her head covered showed respect and culturally it was an evidence of honor much like a woman who presents herself with dignity and honor today. A woman who did not ahve her head copvered was a symbol of dishonor or disrepute.

The comparison I was making is that the way woman dressed then is like the way the Islamic women dressed today under the Taliban.

The passage in 1 Cor is very much talking about a cultural issue to show respect much like a mother or father would address their children to dress and have good manners. If a Christian woman dressed like they did in the NT she would draw attentiuon to herself and not Christ. People would probably assume she was a Muslim. So she would want to dress in such a way that brings honor to Christ.

 

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Oh, but it does. The prostitutes had their heads shaved (1 Cor. 11:5). A woman who had her head covered showed respect and culturally it was an evidence of honor much like a woman who presents herself with dignity and honor today. A woman who did not ahve her head copvered was a symbol of dishonor or disrepute.

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I think you and I finally agree on something, however I do disagree with your above comment. The truth in the scriptures, is not about prostitution, or the culture of the day, as God's word is about HIS truth and HIS WILL and what He requires of us, not about the world and it's culture and traditions, but about obediance and honour to the husband and ultimately to the Lord against that of rebellion, or a rebellious spirit that is shown in the outward manner. If a woman is shaving her head (for reasons other than health issues) or cutting her hair to look like a man, is not necessarily reflective of lust, or prostitution, but that of a rebellious spirit or attitude, and is dishonouring to the Lord. If woman were required to wear a headcovering other than her natural hair, in prayer to the Lord, or prophesying, then a woman would have to continually wear it. My natural hair, continually covers my head. With the belief of some, then a woman would have to continually wear a hat or some other material covering. Are we not commanded to be in continual prayer? The point is about honour to the husband and to the Lord in opposition to rebellion to which is a continual thing, not just in a church gathering.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Been tring to say that here for several years. No one will ever listen. </font>[/QUOTE]That sounds like a good argument, but where does it specifically show that in the Bible? </font>[/QUOTE]Theres a lot in the christian life that isn't specifically in the bible. Your church building, Sunday school, Piano or organ to sing hymns by, a personal copy of scripture no one in the bible had one. We must understand what was going on in the lifes of the people the letter wre written to, why the bible writters wrote what they did, why was it called for that they should write that. That is part of proper bible study. This has been gone over many many times on the BB ob this subject and others, so if you want you can look it up and the way too many threads on this topic. I don't see how I can possibly add more then I have in the past.

 

Tattos and Headcoverings; my 2 favorite topics.

 

Yep, mine, too Gib. Especially when the "novices" can't seem to grasp that there is a link to culture. Some will try to over spiritualize everything until there is no historical significance to the teaching of the time. I wonder why that is?

 

Michelle:

Remember I am taliking about then and not now. I think you are trying to take what I say and apply it directly to today. It was the norm then, not now in our culture. It was only directly applicable then. We have different cultural norms in America than they did.

 

and the one on `wine` ,Gib , and that`s here on BB AGAIN too
Gwyneth.

 

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Michelle:

Remember I am taliking about then and not now. I think you are trying to take what I say and apply it directly to today. It was the norm then, not now in our culture. It was only directly applicable then. We have different cultural norms in America than they did.
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Since when are we to adjust biblical truth to the times and culture of the world? Does God change? Does God's will change? Is God's truth the same yesturday, today, and tomorrow? What makes todays society and culture, different in this respect? Does God expect the woman to keep her head covered in honour to her husband, ultimately in honour to her Lord, or not? Are you saying this does not apply today? So if I were to walk into your church with my head bald or shaven, and claimed I was born again of the Spirit, you would then believe me? You would not see the rebellion in me?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, I for one would believe you. Why? Because man judges from the outward appearance and God judges the heart. To say, however that culture and times don't apply in the word of God is just plain ludicrous. Even God refers to the sun, moon and stars being for times and seasons. And Christ came "in the fullness of time". Cultures differed even then, as they do now. Biblical truth isn't adjusted because of this fact, but application of those truths is.

 

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Michelle, I for one would believe you. Why? Because man judges from the outward appearance and God judges the heart. To say, however that culture and times don't apply in the word of God is just plain ludicrous. Even God refers to the sun, moon and stars being for times and seasons. And Christ came "in the fullness of time". Cultures differed even then, as they do now. Biblical truth isn't adjusted because of this fact, but application of those truths is.
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What is within the outer man, is manifested on the outward appearance and actions. If my outward appearance is manifesting those things that are not in obediance to the word of truth, this is good indication that I am not in obediance. You would be making a poor and unbiblical judgement, to which we are to judge all things. We are not to cast our own judgement upon others, but the judgements of God in the scriptures judge all. If I am living God's truth I will be in accordance with those truths within, and God's will within. If I am not, then this is good indication I am not in obediance, and need to be told. If I then do not hear and obey the correction, I am then to be avoided, to help bring me out of hellfire. This is God's truth. If you truly loved me and the Lord, you would tell me, and if I did not take correction, you would avoid me, for not only the benefit of the church, but for MY BENEFIT also. God's ways, are not the ways of the world.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, that is your opinion as far as my judgement. I'll give you and example. I am a man. I have longer hair than most men. Most would immediately judge according to that particular look or style of my hair. I also have a beard and moustache. I look more like a Charlie Daniels than a former preacher. I can already hear the wheels in your mind running in judgement. But, the thought that first comes to mind is not to judge my salvation, my being right with God, etc. It should be "are there any causes for the man to have longer hair?" Simple answer. Yes, there is. I have a severe inner ear disease in both ears that affects my balance. Most of the time the sound of scissors cutting, or a trimmer cutting my hair sends me into violent episodes of vertigo. Shaving does the same thing. I have been judged inappropriately by almost every single Independent Baptist Church that my wife and I have gone to, though I could probably beat the tar out of any preacher that I've sat under theologically. I was questioned automatically in one church if I was saved, before the service ever began. I asked why they asked that particular question. They stated that I looked like a lost man. I laughed and gave him my testimony in short. He changed his sermon that morning. Though it could have been offensive to me, I didn't take offense. I do however know that in this age of men looking like women and women looking like men and acting like them, that people have questions raised. It is the culture....society. It has nothing to do with changing the Word of God. If you were to judge me incorrectly, you would be sinning, wouldn't you? You are to judge all things? What kind of judgement? RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT with spiritual discernment, Michelle. You're coming along, but I believe you still need some work, Sister.

 

I never said that one should automatically be judged. What I did say is that one should be told what God has said and in a loving manner. If one has a medical reason for such things, then it is quite obvious that the person is not in disobediance, but for reasons other than disobediance. The Lord says this:


Titus 3

1. Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2. To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful,and hating one another.
4. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.


So a person who has approached you with God's truth, and informing you out of great love, care and concern for your soul, has then found out WHY, would then be able to discern this. However, there is good biblical reason that we should approach ANYONE who is not showing forth a change according to biblical mandates, as I explained above. We cannot just assume all are unsaved or saved, because it does not any good for the church, or that person who thinks they are saved, when indeed they may not be, or unsaved, as they may very well be. I speak from my own testimony.


If you had told me that you had long hair only, without explanation, I would not automatically assume that you were being disobediant, but I would indeed wonder why, when God has been very clear about this matter. We should approach others in meekness, and kindness, but with truth and love. I would most likely ask you why, in respect to what God has said about it. This would give the opportunity for an explanation. If your reasons were contrary to the scriptural truth, such as because I like my hair long, and there is nothing wrong with it, or God does not tell us this, then this would cause me to earnestly share with you the truth about it and why. If you then did not listen, I would have to, for not only my benefit, but your benefit first, avoid you.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Oh, so Jesus avoided prostitutes, tax collectors, publicans and sinners. Okay. So, let me see, you are to separate yourself so much that you are of no earthly good, or to put yourself in a higher, mightier bracket. How unChristlike this would be.

As far as the spirit of discernment, you would be judging in the flesh. One who says they have the Holy Spirit guiding them should not be automatic to judge according to the outward appearance, or make a snap judgement.

I must be frank with you here, Michelle. Your attitude is why many people have left IFB churches. I realize that you are still a young Christian and that you have a lot more growing (as do we all) to do in the Lord. IFB churches have a habit of hating the sinner as well as the sin, or condemning the sinner as well as the sin. To them, all things are cut and dried, black and white, and even Christ recognized that this was not the case, even in HIS time on Earth. To apply such a principle when one is not taught is extra-biblical.

Now, to the case of headcoverings. While attending MBBC back in the early 1980's, the ladies there were to wear hats to services, at least the morning service. They were taught that the hair on their head was a covering yes, but to be above the power of the angels, and that wearing a headcovering, such as a scarf, hat, etc., was to show submissiveness to their husbands, or to the male leadership in the church. Personally, I can see both points of view. Both have valid presentations. Personally, I would prefer my wife wear a hat to services, but don't ask her to do so, as it makes her uncomfortable. Few women do wear hats to our services. Yet we find it quite common still in African American churches.

 

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Oh, so Jesus avoided prostitutes, tax collectors, publicans and sinners. Okay. So, let me see, you are to separate yourself so much that you are of no earthly good, or to put yourself in a higher, mightier bracket. How unChristlike this would be.
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I guess you proved my point again, and IGNORED what I said. Typical of you. Now who is judging unrighteous judgement?


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As far as the spirit of discernment, you would be judging in the flesh. One who says they have the Holy Spirit guiding them should not be automatic to judge according to the outward appearance, or make a snap judgement.
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See my above comments. You are clearly the one to make a snap judgement, IGNORING what I clearly said.


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I must be frank with you here, Michelle. Your attitude is why many people have left IFB churches. I realize that you are still a young Christian and that you have a lot more growing (as do we all) to do in the Lord. IFB churches have a habit of hating the sinner as well as the sin, or condemning the sinner as well as the sin. To them, all things are cut and dried, black and white, and even Christ recognized that this was not the case, even in HIS time on Earth. To apply such a principle when one is not taught is extra-biblical.
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You MUST be frank with me? Excuse me, but all you are doing is condemning ME, and not from the scriptures, and you dare accuse me of such a thing? Hypocrate you are. You need to seriously come out from the LABELS you place on others, and FOCUS UPON THE SCRIPTURAL TRUTHS. Just remember what our Lord said:


Luke 14

25. And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26. If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29. Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30. Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32. Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35. It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


We are to HATE what God HATES, and when we are saved, we INDEED DO, in order to approach others in love. If we do not HATE sin, we cannot love God, nor can we please HIM. We cannot be HIS disciple, nor can we pick up the cross and FOLLOW HIM.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle