Featured is it biblical Sexism to say only men can be Elders/pastors in church?

Hi. Nice to see you.:thumbsup:

There is archeological and some (a bit more obscure, perhaps) Biblical evidence that women did serve as pastors in the early church.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2072176#post2072176

 

Nothing specific or that directly bears upon the disputed passage.

And he corrects them with universal, non-optional principles. So even if there were some cult, the response is "this is the right thing to do." Women, keep silence, because the man was first created, then the woman.

 

Actually, I think it does. Examples are provided, both scripturally and historically, of women speaking in churches and being in leadership roles in churches.


Notice that there are verses even in the same passage that speak of women prophesying, praying, exhorting, etc, etc, etc. So if the verse is actually saying all women can never speak during the service in any church because Adam was created first (and again that argument makes no sense at all in that context), then we have a pretty big contradiction.

Also, there's this:

A quote by Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, a native Greek, as quoted in this article: http://www.gospelanswers1.com/WomenPreachers.php (I decided to do some digging around today.)


Even having been raised IFB, I know of no church that seemed to think women should not speak in church nor any that prevented it from happening. I've never known that to be a matter of dispute, although most of the churches I have been to do believe that women cannot be ordained as pastors. That reason was never explained, although it's possible that the people arrived at a similar conclusion as Dr. Zodhiates that I quoted above...the conclusion could be gained from a study of the passage itself and probably wouldn't require too much additional research.

 

Dude. You're projecting. No one said that women never ever utter a word.

The point is that men have the authority, and women do not. You're saying he is just saying heretical women should keep silent, which is a absurd. First, heretics need to be excommunicated. Second, the Creation order has nothing to do with silencing hereitcs. He might was well cite the 5th Commandment.

Here's the most likely scenario: women are emboldened by their equality in Christ to usurp their roles. Paul says, "Guys, in heaven there is no male and female, but on earth there is. So though women need no intermediary between them and Christ, there is still nature, nature's God, and a created order that must be observed, not just because of nature, but also because of the angels who themselves are under authority.

 

Okay. Perhaps I misunderstood your second paragraph then. But still, I've never known any church that prohibits women from asking questions, including during the service. If they're being disruptful or disrespectful...then yeah, we have a problem. Same if men were being disruptful or disrespectful.

Again, one of the teachings of the cult was that Eve was created first and that rather than sinning she was "enlightened".
From what I read, the cult was outside of the church, but apparently confusing some of the women and/or causing some of them to stir up trouble. To me the wording seems to make more sense that way, too. ("Let everything be done decently and in order" in verse 40 as one example)

So HOW does it make sense for nature to prevent woman from teaching merely on virtue of having been born women? That has never made sense to me, though I used to believe it. I don't believe there is any way to make sense of that reasoning. "Adam was created first, therefore women must not speak in church and cannot teach men"...um, what? That argument honestly sounds like a non sequitur to me.

Yes, men are usually physically stronger than women and women are usually physically weaker than men. This is a scientific fact, although there certainly are exceptions. Yes, this does suit men to some jobs more so than it does women. But intellectually men and women are equal and both can do well in those fields.

 

It does make sense if one sees nature as it was intended, but, it doesn't have to make sense. God does not have to justify His ways to us. The Potter has power over the clay, and He makes one vessel for this, and another for that. What say have the vessels?

The reasoning "merely on the virtue of having been born a woman," is based on the premise that these are random events and that God has no purpose in His choice of one's gender. It is essentially a Darwinistic argument. The appropriate response is, "what is God's purpose in making one a man or woman?"

If nothing else, God's purposes and His will are the focus of the distinctions in gender roles.

 

I believe in gender roles to the extent that men and women are suited to different tasks to some degree, but not to the extent that women are restricted to any specific roles.
And neither can I see that gender roles have much if anything to do with pastoral positions or leadership roles. In fact women can do very well in leadership roles.

 

This is one of those areas where it's good to recognize the PRINCIPLES of Scripture that generally accompany the commands of Scripture.

For this one, the principle is that God is a God of order and He has a divine order.

A God of order does not author disorder by placing the husband at the head of the house at home and then turning around and placing the wife over the husband at church.

His ordained order remains the same.
GOD==> Husband submitting to God.===>Wife submitting to God submitting husband.====>Kids submitting to God submitting parents.

The order is the same in our house as it is supposed to be in God's house.

 

The context of Ephesians 4&5 is our relationships within the church.

Eph 5:21-24
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Within this general instruction, lies this specific 1:

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Because:
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church:and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

No "grey área" here.

 

Fair point, I guess.
Although I don't think the "wives submit to husband" thing means what some tend to think it means. If that's the case, women would have to obey her husband the same way her kids to have obey them...which is ridiculous. Children are in that position largely because they are young, and therefore inexperienced, plus they don't have the mental capacity to make decisions for themselves. While women have the same mental capacity as men. I tend to think what the idea means is more that women should respect the husband enough to not try to run all over him. And in fact one of the quotes I used from a page or two back goes into the Greek meaning of the words in the verse in Corinthians and points out that it doesn't appear to be referring to authority, but rather comparing the relationships. God the Father & Jesus; the husband & wife, and how they complete each other.
I've got to leave for church, but I will requote that before I leave.

Furthermore, not all women pastors are married. This idea of "order" is only used in reference to those who are married, notice. Also, some women preach and have husbands who preach as well.

P.S. And again, women were allowed to prophesy in the church and the Bible mentions one or two women apostles. According to the passage in Corithians on spiritual gifts, these two positions are a rank up from teachers.

 

Source: http://christianthinktank.com/fem09.html

 

The place I see sexism in the church the most is when men teach that the only "biblical" place for a woman is at home. I see those limiting the role of pastor to men only, but encouraging women to use their gifts, even outside the home as having a difference of interpretation but not being sexist. That is inflammatory and unnecessary. As inflammatory and unnecessary as the accusations that those allowing woman to be pastors are ignoring scripture and/ or giving into cultural demands. Like Quest, it is because of the scriptures that I believe woman can be pastors.

 

Agreed. I can't help but find the view of women being restricted to the home and not being allowed to have jobs or careers sexist and rather demeaning, as if women are incapable of thinking or excelling at anything other than making and raising children and cleaning house. (I'm a slob at housekeeping, by the way. At least when it comes to my own house.)
Most people, including most Christians, don't hold that view, though. Not these days, anyway.

But the idea that women cannot be pastors (but not really restricted other than that)? I just can't see that as sexist. I grew up with that view and believed it for most of my life up to this point. (I haven't been in existence all that long, you see. Only a couple decades.) My parents held that belief. The church I attend holds that belief. And I love the people there.
How could I hold something like that against my brothers and sisters in Christ? Why would I want to cause division and tear my brothers and sisters down over it? I'd much rather concentrate on areas where we can build each other up.

 

It sounds like someone has a low opinion of God as well as His word.

 

See, there you have it

 

See, restricting women to the home versus restricting them only from pastoring roles are just two different things is what I was trying to say. The former I see as sexist and demeaning, the latter I don't.