"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

And futhermore, concerning Abortion doctors--if you or anyone else ever disposed of one--and I remotely thought you did it--the next knock on your door would be from Marshall Matt Dillon and Festus(as in Gunsmoke). You won't get away with murder. I'd turn you in before your heart beat two times in a row!

 

So the situation ethic here is that, even though the abortion doctor kills dozens, if not hundreds, of unborn human beings a year, you'd do what you could to prevent him from being killed, just so he could turn around and continue with his work?

(and just for the record, I agree with Blackbird--don't come to my door looking for the doctor, because you'll have to kill me first before I'll allow you to get to him (without lying, of course); and I'll be one of the first ones to turn you in if you murder in the name of stopping murder)

 

I agree with your answer concerning abortion doctors but you aren't being consistent. You say you would lie to save the life of a Jew but not to save the life of an unborn. I say that I would not lie to save the life of either although I would turn the killer of an abortion doctor in rather than refusing to answer the question.

Let's change the scenario just a little. What if the racketeering laws are applied to abortion protesters and groups refuse to stop protesting? Would you be willing to hide the organizers and leaders if the police were hunting them? Would you lie to keep them from being unjustly convicted?

The best answer is to follow God's explicit command to not lie and trust Him with the outcome.

[ August 19, 2002, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

Nice opinion, but could you support it with scripture. You seem to have overlooked that Paul states very clearly that God is who establishes the laws of the State, not the State Legislature. So it is implied that we are to follow State law even when it conflicts with a scripture, since that is God's latest law he has established.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Verses 3 and 4 of the chapter you cite support my point of view. In context, the first 4 verses of Romans 13 establish a government's right to make and enforce laws consistent with God's law. It is not a prohibition for resistance against an ungodly government.

Paul's own life and ministry prove this view. He was imprisoned yet continued his outlaw preaching. Why? Because God's laws supercede man's laws when they conflict.

 

So, none of you guys would help me in time of war with an "underground" endeavor--printing illegal documents, falsifying Identification papers, breaking into enemy headquarters and stealing information which may be beneficial to the outcome of the war, switching road signs, printing maps with wrong road directions, taking a "Pot Shot" at a Nazi(or whoever else the enemy may be at the time), working by stealth, assemblying artillery shells without the fuses intact, etc.--is it right to do any of the above and still be Christian? All of the above would be wrong, wouldn't it??

Yes, its wrong to lie but time and time again I have told you guys that I am willing to receive punishment for the lie I've just told from God than to see some innocent person's life being taken in cold blood!

 

Two things, Blackbird--well, actually three. First, if I haven't made this clear, I really do respect your stand for your convictions, and your honesty.

Second, if I were forced to work in a factory assembling artillery shells to be used against the people that I support, how could I possibly see not putting fuses in them as "lying"? Unless you're saying that you put yourself in the position in the factory in order to work this subterfuge, in which case, I'll give the matter a little more thought--but it still doesn't seem like lying....

Third, if you were to be put in that position, how do you know God hasn't placed you in this position to see how you will honor Him?

 

Go back and read Corrie ten Boom's account of working in an assembly line--assembling communicaion radios--the supervisor on the job told her "You are doing it wrong! Look, place this wire here and that wire there!" Bingo! A sabotore--she did as she was told knowing the radios wouldn't work!

If I were in a predictament like what you mentioned above, Brother Don, I beleive with all my heart that God's mission to me would be preserving life. I would be obeying Him by preserving innocent lives in any way, form, or fashion!!

 

Early in the thread, Aaron mentioned the Hebrew midwives. I later mentioned it. I was responded to by being told that the answer had already been posted. I do not see any answer. If I missed it, please repeat the answer. It seems that not only did the midwives lie to Pharoah, but that God blessed them because of it. If this is taken literally in every instance, then the CIA and the Army Intelligence would have to cease to exist. These are tough questions with on easy answers. Please don't resond by telling me that you would never tell a lie. I find it hard to believe that if a gun were placed to the head of one of your children, you would not lie (short of denying Christ) to save them.

 

Terry --

That was I who told you that this had been
answered early in the thread. Now, I realize
how rude that was of me. I am So Sorry!!

The Scriptures do not say that the Lord
blessed these women for lying. Rather, it says
that He blessed them for saving the children, if
I remember correctly. (It is late!!)

Also, we are not sure they were Hebrew women
at all, and it is not likely that they were. They
were called the nurses to the Hebrew women.
Rather, I think they were Egyptian sent to do the
dirty work of murdering the boy babies. Their
names are not Hebrew, but, of course, that does
not necessarily prove anything, because
captives were often forced to take on names
from the captors' country.

But Pharaoh is not likely to send Hebrew
women to kill their own kind; they would not
be likely to do it. Also, the women knew about
the way Egyptian women gave birth, and they
told him that the Hebrew women were not like
the Egyptian women, who labored hard and
long to give birth.

Egyptian women had not worked hard as the
Hebrew women did, which caused them to be
stronger and have an easier time giving birth
with less aftercare.

Again, I am so sorry for that response.

[ August 23, 2002, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

In the case of war time or any military or police action, FBI, CIA. These people are under a direct order from Paul to do as the State directs them. That includes killing and the killing of innocents when it is required. Not to follow orders from the State is to disobey God. There are times when it is the will of God that we sin.

Let me prove this concept. How many times did God have a gentile state come against the Jews as a punishment of the Jews for not following God's commands. This means that God used others to kill men women and children as it was his will. His mandate in Romans 13 means that even a Nazi in Germany is following Gods ordained command to follow orders, not to do so is going against God. WWII resulted in the present Jewish State and without each thing that happened in Germany it would not have occurred.

We don't know what the purpose of innocents being killed is in God's plan, we do know that he wants us to obey the State due to Romans 13. We do know he works in mysterious ways. We do know we are to do wrong if commanded by the State because that IS part of Gods plan.

 

So God ordained Hitler??!! And then Hitler hires Himmler, Goring, Haydrich, and Goebbels to do his dirty work??!! And as a result--over six million Jews were slaughtered in cold blood, not counting the millions of Gypsies and Poles and the over 22 million Russians Hitler killed--not counting the millions of Russians killed by Stalin and his puppets! All this to start a little, itty-bitty nation in Palestine where the Palestinians go around throwing rocks at M1A1 Abrams tanks and blowing up buses full of Israeli children and women!!

I just got through reading a book titled "The Holcaust" by Nora Levin and the writer at the end deplors the American and British government for not doing more, sooner to rescue the Jews. My soul and body! The American and British governments were not trying to save a few Jews--they were trying to save 4 continents!! They weren't ignoring the cries of the Jew in the concentration camp--they were paying attention to the cries of people on 4 continents!!

Romans 13--didn't give the Germans the "go ahead" to obey Hitler! Romans 13 didn't give the SS and the Einsatzgruppen the "go ahead" to obey orders to the tee! The German people were not obeying Romans 13 by obeying Hitler!! Rather, they were disobeying Romans 13 by obeying Hitler! The German people were brain-washed into believing they were doing God's will!!

Rather, Romans 13--gave the United States, Britian, Canada, and Austrailia the power to go in and kick the "you-know-what" out of Hitler, Musslini, He-ro-hee-to and whoever else who wanted to kill off whole civilizations who were incently minding their own business!! Romans 13 gave US troops the right to fire their M-1 Garands and throw hand granades and sail a Destroyer and Aircraft Carrier! It didn't give the Waffen SS power to do "Diddley-Squat!!"

 

Nice opinion, but could you support it with scripture. You seem to have overlooked that Paul states very clearly that God is who establishes the laws of the State, not the State Legislature. So it is implied that we are to follow State law even when it conflicts with a scripture, since that is God's latest law he has established.</font>[/QUOTE]Daniel did it when he prayed 3 times aday and it was out lawed. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did when they would not worship Nebuchadnezzar image of gold. Peter and John Did it (acts 4:18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.)

Here is some support from the Bible.

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Amen John

 

God cannot be partners with sin. Is it a sin to lie?

What if it were said, "Do you know where the Jews are? Are you hiding them?" And you just say, "Hey! look if you think they are here."

I don't think I could just turn them in.

I think the real thing would be to pray for God to give you the answer before anything was said, or done. Pray for the knowledge before hiding them.

Sherrie