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Featured Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Many people know about God, but less actually are converted and follow God. As Christ did at Gethsemane we must set aside all and follow Gods will. Jesus came across someone who asked this same question:
    Matthew 19:16-17
    "16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

    This young ruler obviously lived “a good life.” He’d convinced himself that he had “made it” in both before others and in his spiritual life. Yet, for all that, he sensed something was missing.

    Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into eternal life, what is necessary?

    What was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

    We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler:
    Matthew 19:20-22
    "20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

    In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unconverted people cannot truly obey God, they can "talk" about God, but not fully "walk" with Him. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Those who aren't really converted and will be lost at the end, can’t obey. The truly converted or saved at the end, will show the fruits of the Spirit..

    Ephesians 5:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul answers this in Acts 16:31!
     
  3. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Of course!
     
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Obedience is proof (fruit shown to others) of salvation. It is not nor does it bring salvation.

    It is not the catalyst it is the result.
     
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  5. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    I would agree, and yet Christ gave an answer that needs much understanding and discernment. The answer to the lawyer in the story of the Good Samaritan comes to mind....

    Luke 10:25-37 King James Version (KJV)
    25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
    29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
    30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
    31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
    32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
    33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
    34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
    35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
    36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
    37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
     
  6. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    Obedience is a component of faith - not an "after-effect".

    The Scriptures show us over and over that TRUE faith = Belief + Obedience (surrender/Works).
    They ALSO show us that even the DEMONS believe in the truths about God - but are not saved (James 2:19). That's why James goes onto describe what REAL faith is as opposed to "belief" (James 2:14-26).

    Paul also reminds us that faith is worthless without LOVE and that the only thing that matters is faith working through love.
    In other words, TRUE faith doesn't work without love/surrender/obedience. It is an essential component of faith.

    It's like saying that you have a car and that's "ALL you need to drive".
    HOWEVER, if that car is missing the engine - then it is as worthless as a paperweight.

    It's an essential building block of faith and has NOTHING to do with "after-effects" . . .
     
  7. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    How do you see these verses...
    Hebrews 5:9 King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    John 15:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
    13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    John 14:15
    If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    1 John 2:3
    And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    1 John 5:2
    By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
     
  8. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    Romans 4:1-5 KJV
    [1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
     
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    “Without faith, it is impossible to please Him.”

    “Faith without works is useless (of no value to others).

    The works do nothing as Paul contends in Corinthians 13 without the “love of God” which is only acquired by belief/faith (pistils).

    The context of how the word “pistils” occurs is the determination of whether faith, faithful, and belief is chosen to be used in the English.

    Demonic belief has no salvation standing. The crucifixion was victorious over demonic forces not offering them peaceful terms.

    12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
    Again, faith is the catalyst for works. Works is not part of the compound of faith.

    Perhaps the passage found in Ephesians best summarizes the principle:

    1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


     
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  10. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    James differentiates between the belief of the demons and faith in James 2:19. He explains over the next several verses that belief is NOT faith - but merely a component of it, along with works. He solidifies this idea in verse 21 when he writes:
    James 2:21
    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

    This verse confuses many people because it seemingly refute Romans 3:28, which states:
    Rom. 3:28
    For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

    The KEY phrase here is "works of the LAW". Paul is talking about works of the LAW - NOT works in Christ which God prepared for us in advance (Eph. 2:10) for which we can claim NO credit. What Abraham did was NOT a work of the Law, either.

    Our works in Christ are an essential component of our faith - NOT just an "after-effect" (James 2:14-26, Matt. 7:21, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    We disagree, no doubt.

    May I suggest that part of your misapplication might be found in not attending to the fact that James, and Matthew were written specifically to Jewish audiences who (as you) placed greater emphasis of some work done to gain rather than validate.

    Also, in the Galatian passages, Paul is addressing including Jews who taught believers were to keep certain Jewish laws, in that case, circumcising.

    You do recognize 1 Corinthians 13 is attending to the relationship of faith, hope, Love in how they are the catalyst of effective work, not the results of work?

    Lest you misunderstand, I am all for works. It is important to examine from what motivating emphasis the work of God is accomplished.

    If work is pre-appointed by God, and if such follows salvation, then faith produces works, but is not that which is a component of works. Shown in the last section of my previous post.
     
  12. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    Realizing that James and Matthew are written more directly toward the Jews - the "rules", if you will, aren't different for Jews and Gentiles in Christ. We are ALL in this together. The initial approach may differ slightly, but the same rules apply to ALL of us.

    Additionally - Paul was writing about works of the LAW in Rom. 3:28 - not the works in Christ he speaks of in Eph. 2:10.

    As to your final line in RED - works don't follow salvation, as salvation is a lifelong process. The Bible is clear that there are stages of salvation that we go through:

    The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
    This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

    However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it also says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
    This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

    Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
    This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

    It's a lifelong process - not a one-time, slam dunk event.
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Certainly, correct. But that is NOT the contention of the Jewish believers. THEY thought that the gentiles had to become as Jews.

    What works of the Law might Paul be discussing in Romans? Look again at the context:
    1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.​

    The "Law" Paul is discussing is that of the Jews.

    To the Jews "circumcision" was the outward sign of national identification. It was unique and distinguishable from all other national identification marks. Paul uses the term in the Ephesians to distinguish the estate of the believers - as the original Jews were - a completely separate identifiable group.

    I don't see anything in Red that I wrote. But no matter.

    What you view as a "process" I view as a done deal.

    I Christ has saved, does save and will (continue). Salvation by the Father through Christ is a matter of both preservation and perseverance. Neither relies upon the believer. I am not born in Christ by my works, and neither am I kept in Christ by my works.

    To clarify this John wrote:
    13By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.1 5Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 1 9We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannota love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.​

    The principles that I have shown you in from Scripture (including previous posts) include:
    I love Him because He first loved me.
    I was redeemed by Him FOR good works that were pre-appointed by God to be done through me.
    According to the statement of Christ, there will be those who have relied upon work who come to Him and are rejected because He "never KNEW them." They relied upon something done other than what He had accomplished for us.​

    And there are other principles.

    Salvation is not a life long PROCESS, but a divine interaction that lasts for eternity.

    Growth and maturity in Him is a life long process.

    Now YOU referenced Romans 3:28, but perhaps you missed the context. Look here:
    27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.


    Faith upholds the law, but faith does not in any manner come from or by the law.

    Faith upholds the work of the believer, but faith does not in any manner come from or by the work.
     
  14. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    This is where we differ.

    I believe as Scripture teaches and as the Church has taught for 2000 years - that our salvation requires our cooperation with God's grace. This is why Paul refers to us as "sunergos" (co-workers) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1). To think otherwise is silly and renders God a coercer who has to force people to love him instead of allowing US to make the choice. This doesn't mean that the Church teaches we can have faith without God's grace.

    God's gift is free - but WE still have to accept it. We can keep it (persevere) or throw it away.
    It's OUR choice and He wouldn't have it any other way.

    As to Rom. 3:28 - I referenced it merely to differentiate works of the LAW (Mosaic) that Paul was talking about here - and works that are a component of faith that God prepared for us in advance (Eph. 2:10).

    Finally - as to YOUR comment that Jews thought that the gentiles had to become "as Jews" - they didn't ALL believe this way. This was the error of the Judaizers, like the ones in Antioch spoken of in Acts 15 - and the reason Paul and Barnabas went to seek the counsel of the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem.

    .
     
  15. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Do you agree born-again believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit?

    What is the seal of the Holy Spirit? | GotQuestions.org

    "Question: "What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?"

    Answer:
    The Holy Spirit is referred to as the “deposit,” “seal,” and “earnest” in the hearts of Christians (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). The Holy Spirit is God’s seal on His people, His claim on us as His very own. The Greek word translated “earnest” in these passages is arrhabōn which means “a pledge,” that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest. The gift of the Spirit to believers is a down payment on our heavenly inheritance, which Christ has promised us and secured for us at the cross. It is because the Spirit has sealed us that we are assured of our salvation. No one can break the seal of God...."
     
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Ultimately you seem to disagree with what Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

    11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
     
  17. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    First of all - I don't "disagree" with Paul. I fully agree with him but I also understand the Church's 2000 year-old teachings on God's boundless omnipresence.

    Your problem, as with most Protestant is that you attempt to divorce Paul's Epistles from the rest of Scripture. They must be read in CONTEXT with the rest of Scripture.

    This is why Peter pointed out that his writings were difficult to understand and that the ignorant and unstable twist them to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16). Paul didn't preach a "different" Gospel than Christ or the rest. He simply approached it from a different point of view. I get tired pf Protestants constantly pitting "Paul's Gospel" against all of the others.

    In the verses you presented above simply solidify the Catholic position that God "foreknew" because He is present at ALL points of time and sees every choice every person ever made.
     
  18. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    That's not true. Just look at Israel.

    They were chosen by God and sealed in the covenant with Him - yet they became unfaithful. I keep bringing up Christ's lament over Jerusalem as proof:

    Matt. 23:37
    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and YOU were not willing!

    This was spoken to God's chosen people who were sealed in the Covenant.
    Scripture tells us over and over that although God's love is unconditional - salvation is conditional. This is expressed perfectly in 2 Timothy:

    2 Tim. 2:12-13
    IF we have died with him, we shall also live with him; IF we endure, we shall also reign with him; IF we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

    This passage is telling us that WE must remain in him if He is to remain in US. It ends by stating that He is faithful to His promises because He cannot be something different than what He is. But if we deny Him - He will deny US.
     
  19. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Please provide scripture stating that Israel was sealed with God in the covenant.

    God relationship with Israel prior to Pentecost was not the same as His relationship to His chosen after Pentecost.

    Please share some details of your new birth in Jesus Christ; age, church affiliation, etc.
     
  20. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    [QUOTE="Wesley Briggman, post: 2579795, member: 13840"]Please provide scripture stating that Israel was sealed with God in the covenant.

    God relationship with Israel prior to Pentecost was not the same as His relationship to His chosen after Pentecost.

    Please share some details of your new birth in Jesus Christ; age, church affiliation, etc.[/QUOTE}
    Regarding Israel being sealed in the Covenant with God:

    Exodus 24:8
    Then Moses took the blood in the bowls and threw it on the people. He said, “This is the blood that SEALS THE COVENANT which the Lord made with you when he gave all these commands.”

    My new birth in Christ took place at my Baptism, as prescribed in Scripture (John 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21, Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:11-12, Tit. 3:4-8).
     
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