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Is Original Sin Doctrine Found in Bible?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Feb 17, 2018.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Or was this just a man made up form Augustine then?
     
  2. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I believe it is a manmade solution of the evidence of sin, We know the desire to sin in inate. We know Adam did sin in the flesh first so we agree it was Adam's fault in that he did it first. We had several man made inaccurate solutions. We are sinners.

    I believe Exe 18:20 says no inherited sin, each is responsible for our own sin. So It is manmade, a contrqdiction

    Eze 18:20

    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

    The opinion comes from this verse:
    Rom 5:12

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    but we should keep in mind Satan , a sinner, was already here to tempt Adam.
     
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  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Agreed, which is how we might view it as the "sin nature."

    I take the view that we have that sin nature, not because it was "passed down to us," but because we are conceived and born into this world separated from God, which is the true condition of every man and woman coming into this world. We will sin, and have that innate desire, because God does not dwell in us which is the only means by which man can accomplish the will of God. Until we are born again and eternally indwelt, we simply do not understand God's will for our lives and the lives of others.


    God bless.
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You might present Augustine's presentation of "Original Sin" for members to have something to judge.


    God bless.
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We sin by nature - IMO Romans 5:12 is the indisputable verse.

    No one has to teach their children to sin - it comes naturally.
    Again - an apple tree is an apple tree whether it bears fruit or not.

    Sin is universal among the human race.
     
  6. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Sin is universal. We all have it , I just didn't get it from my father and this Adam
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes you did. Then when you were cognizant of sin you put your stamp of approval on it because you loved it.

    We are all rotten to the core enslaved to sin and capable of anything just like Adam our progenitor.

    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    Not only is the human heart deceitful, it is deceitful above all things.
    Not only is the human heart wicked, it is desperately wicked.

    What people don't like about admitting they were born in and with sin is that it makes us slaves to sin.

    Unless we acknowledge this fact of our enslavement to our sinful state we cannot be saved.

    John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
    35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

    36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    Jesus said COME UNTO ME

    John 7
    37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    Matthew 11
    28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
     
  8. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    True, all true
    I think we were sinners and continue to as sinners as human. I think, instead of being human as a negative, I think it is positive , part of redemption.
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    How does one get it from their father, Hank?

    Secondly, is not by nature that Gentiles performed the works of the Law written on their hearts?


    Romans 2:14-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)



    We would not then impose a "nature of keeping the Law" in men based on their performance, would we?

    While our nature's are certainly bent towards sin, the reason is not because we inherited something from Adam, or our fathers, but because we are separated from God. That is why we sin.

    And just as you note above, it is when we are cognizant of sin that we embrace it, but, not until we know it. It is usually the opposite of sin that our parents instruct us in, and our desire to do the opposite through which sin arises.

    The teaching of "the sin nature" is, in my opinion, simply a doctrine created to support an overly zealous teaching of Election.


    God bless.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Zeke was not explaining the Fall, nor our inherited Sin state, but that God will not execute judgement unfairly, for each person shall be judged on an individual basis.
     
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God condemned all after Adam to have the sin nature passed on to them.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are all born with a spirit that seeks to have its own way, is me centered, is prideful, its plain sin centered!
     
  13. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    That would not be on an individual basis
     
  14. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    but individual basis excludes inherited sin nature. I cannot be judged individually if another is responsible.
    suppose one was without sin as an individual ae they guilty or not due to a sin nature?
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All received the sin nature....
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam was on trial for all of us before God, and when he fell, as our representative in our stead, we all fell!
     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

    The verbs are all pass tense so It happened all at once to the human race when Adam sinned. Sin and death passed through the Human Race..

    The only way that could have been is if the Spirit of God had a ministry to gentiles without the law.
    Paul talks about these in the Romans passages you gave but gives no specific illustrations of such gentiles.


    I believe It is deeper than that -

    Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Like I said previously no one teaches us to sin, we do what comes naturally and its universal.
    Also a pear tree is a pear tree whether it bears fruit or not.

    Election is taught by both C and A. C - Election is by decree, A - Election is by foreknowledge.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Of course not. It isn’t in the Bible, per se, but is a Catholic tradition founded on “the Fall”. We shouldn’t expect such things to be present in Scripture.
    Throughout Church history men have derived theories and ideas of how sin entered the world. Origen reinterpreted the Biblical account of Adam and Eve in terms of a Platonic allegory (he viewed sin as originating solely from free will). Tertullian, borrowing from Stoic philosophy, viewed the sin of Adam as introducing an irrational element into human nature.

    Augustine, however, interpreted Scripture through a philosophical lens and was the first to use Scripture to justify the doctrine. From the traditions that had developed he understood the account of Adam and Eve in Genesis as a description of the fall of humanity from grace (with all of mankind biologically present within Adam, therefore participating in the sin).

    What you have to understand is Augustine’s worldview. Augustine was influenced by Neoplatonic philosophy (IMHO, from reading his works, perhaps influenced by his own struggles) and he, in turn, introduced this into the Church. His view of sexual relations was skewed (it does not match the New Testament teachings) but more importantly Augustine developed the idea that sin was passed down by biological transmission. This is rejected in Pauline doctrine (1 Cor 2:6-14; 2 Cor 4; Eph 2; Eph 6). Where Paul saw a sin as a spiritual issue within a spiritual domain, Augustine saw it as a biological problem.

    The Biblical account of original sin differs from “Doctrine of Original Sin”. In Scripture the original sin of man was when Adam disobeyed God and ate of the “forbidden fruit”. This resulted in his “eyes being opened” to good and evil and knowing such as God knows good and evil. This resulted in sin and death entering the world of man (the “curse” is in Genesis 3:17).

    Paul does not deal with “original sin” in that it is passed down biologically, but rather speaks of sin entering the world. He points to Adam willingly submitting himself to Satan rather than hearing, believing and obeying the word of God. This ensured that his descendants would be under the rule and influence of Satan (slaves to sin) – not because their nature was altered but because he lacked the power to overcome the Adversary. This is why we read in Psalm 51 of the author being “conceived in sin”. It was not, as Augustine supposed, an evil based on a biological state (Neoplatonic philosophy, i.e., conception itself) but rather the result of a conception through which he would entered a world in slavery to sin.
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Post #17 is the scriptural evidence of what is called "original sin".

    Personally I don't like the title because it is a misnomer and a popish title.

    Satan was the "original sinner".
    .
    Romans 5:12 is IMO the "proof passage" of the "origin" of the sin nature (or predilection to sin) in the human race

    NIV Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

    Because of the past tenses (aorist) virtually we "all sinned" when Adam sinned and we come into the world condemned - this is what I feel is the correct hermeneutic.

    Obviously there is a disagreement with others.

    But its all here in this thread of debate.
     
  20. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Romans 5:12 is showing the comparison of Jesus as Adam of one man affecting many, Jesus establishes a system whereby we can be saved. Were all men saved by Jesus?
    Rom 5:19
    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
     
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