1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is Righteousness Imputed Apart From Works?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bill, where does any definition you posted state or imply a gift cannot have conditions?
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Comprendez vous Anglais? Francais?.....?

    What language do you understand? What dictionary do you want to use? Perhaps the one written by HP.

    There is no such thing as a free gift with conditions. It is a contradiction of terms.
    It is like a banker saying "Here is a gift of ten dollars, now I want you to pay for it." If it is a gift one doesn't pay for it. If one pays for it, it is not a gift. Thus a free gift cannot have any conditions, any strings attached, nada, nothing, zilch! It is free; a gift, with no conditions. Study the English language, and the Greek too if you have to.
     
  3. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,548
    Likes Received:
    193
    Oh, I understand it alright; I just don't agree with it.
    With respect, yes you do. You approach James through your presumption that your sola fide interpretation of Romans 5 is correct.
    Another presumption; yes, James is about orthopraxis but it is also about orthodoxy. I fail to see how you can read "a man is not saved by faith alone" in a non-doctrinal way without performing unfeasible feats of mental gymnastics.
    And you're not doing this with your 'take' on Romans 5, then?
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    There is a reason for everything. Your reason is....
    No, you don't know how I study the Bible. I have been through every book of the Bible, and study each one independently. Unless you see my approach to Bible Study you have no basis on which to make which seem to be false accusations.
    So your approach to the Bible is "Matt doesn't believe Romans 5 is correct." You go into the Bible with an inherent belief that Romans 5 shouldn't be there or what? What exactly are you saying?
    Your approach to the Bible: Treat every book the same regardless of context. The context doesn't matter. Thus the key verse of the book of Judges: "And every man did that which is right in their own eyes." should apply to us. Forget about the law; forget about God. We should have complete anarchy; antinomianism. This is your belief because context has no place in your theology. Is this correct?

    You refuse to deal with context in the Book of James.
    Why would you bother with context in the Book of Judges?
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    HP: Now come on DHK. Your are a fine one to be admonishing others on context. :rolleyes:

     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    DHK: There are some verses which can stand alone as timeless truths forever speaking forth the truth regardless of context.

    Is my statement true or false.
    If false, what is false about it?
    If true, why are you bringing it up?
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK, context to you appears to me as simply a weapon to wield if it happens to be in favor of a position you have taken. If context proves otherwise you simply dismiss it. Case in point, Psalms 58.
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    There is a universal truth taught in Psalm 58:3 regardless of the context. You, because of your theology, refuse to believe it. You would rather throw your Bible out the window, than to believe the truth of original sin. You refuse to believe that truth no matter how many times it is shown you and where it is shown you.
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Who said anything about a condition being ‘payment’ for it???? Why do you put up that paper duck to shoot at? The fulfilling of a condition is not 'paying' for anything.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    "free" is without condition. Condition is the equivalent of payment or works rendered.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hogwash DHK. There is not a shred of evidence that your remarks are true, and you have failed to support your belief other than to beat on the pulpit. I will ask yet another time, Show us one bit of evidence that a gift cannot have conditions attached and still be justly considered a free gift.

    Refute the examples I have given. Tell me whether or not a pardon is a gift, and show us why it is not reasonable to place conditions of the freedom a pardon grants freely, without payment of any kind.
     
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gift


    gift
       
    –noun
    1.something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.
    2.the act of giving.
    3.something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.
    4.a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.



    Now will you be so kind as to cite a definition of gift that includes conditions? If such a definition exists, you should be able to provide it to us. You can easily prove us wrong.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    A pardon is not a gift. That is why it is a pardon. Two separate words; two separate meanings. Even dictionaries and articles written on pardons indicate that they are given to inmates that have shown themselves "worthy" of a pardon. But no man is "worthy" of salvation.

    You look up the definition of "gift".
    Then look up the definition of "free."
    Then put the two together.

    There is no possible way that a "free gift" can have conditions, no matter "how hard you pound your pulpit," or "beat on your computer," or "holler at your laptop." It ain't gonna work.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    2Th 1:11 ¶ Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
    Eph 4:1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    What do those verses have to do salvation?
    Do you know the difference between the sun and the moon?
    Why the red herrings? Can't you keep on topic.
     
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    2Th 1:11 ¶ Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling,

    Note, It does not say: "worthy of salvation."
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Never stated that it did. I simply posted some verses I felt should give cause for careful consideration/ edification. :thumbs:
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Which in light of the conversation and title of the thread are "red herrings."
     
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Personally, I believe it is a stalling tactic to avoid answering Amy's question, (and mine).
     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: 1. A pardon is given “voluntarily without payment in return.” If it required payment, such payment would be considered a bribe.
    2. One granting a pardon performs an act of giving
    3. A pardon is bestowed or “acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without being earned.”
    4. (does not apply to the sense of ‘gift’ we are discussing)

    Nothing new here Amy. A pardon is a gift fitting nicely inside the parameters of the first three definitions shown, yet clearly has implied conditions on receiving and remaining the freedom it grants. Of a truth, a gift certainly can have conditions, salvation being no exception, as demonstrated clearly by a pardon.
     
Loading...