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Is Romans 6:3-4 Water or Holy Spirt Baptism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by On the side of truth, Jan 30, 2006.

  1. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Ron Arndt said:

    Please show me in Romans 6:3-4 or Gal 3:27 where WATER is mentioned?

    Baptism literally means washing. Washing requires water. Or do you think they dry-cleaned their dishes?
     
  2. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Ransom has an excellent point here—the Greek word translated “baptism” literally means dipping, and in the New Testament sense, for the purpose of washing or cleansing, something that was always done with water. Therefore, whenever we read “baptism” (or any of its cognate forms) in the Bible, we must assume that it is speaking of water baptism unless the text clearly indicates otherwise. In Roman 6:3-4 there is nothing at all to indicate that Paul did not have water baptism in mind. The only reason for believing otherwise is to force the passage to harmonize with ones theological presuppositions. In this particular case, however, a careful reading of the passage in its historical and cultural context does not require that the passage be spiritualized in order to bring it into harmony with your particular theology. It simply requires a basic understanding of the New Testament as a collection first century documents written in Greek by Helenistic Christians to other Helenistic Christians.

    Rom. 6:3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
    4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    And as though that is not enough, the language used in Rom. 6:3-4 to describe “baptism” is in perfect harmony with water baptism by immersion which pictures the recipient of baptism dying with Christ, being buried with Christ, and being raised with Christ. The reception of the Holy Spirit is described in entirely different language,

    Acts 2:2. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
    3. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
    4. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. (NASB, 1995)

    Where do you find a “violent rushing wind” and “tongues of fire” in Rom. 6:3-4? :D

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    Ransom

    No, the word baptism does not mean washing at all. I suggest you consult a Greek lexicon. Baptism simply means to be immersed. The word baptism is used in association with different things in scripture.

    For example, the bible says we are baptized BY the Holy Spirit.I Cor 12:13. This is a baptism by the Holy Spirit where we are placed into Christ. There is a baptism WITH the Holy Spirit that is evidence by supernatural gifts.Acts 1:5 and Acts 2:4. The children of Israel were baptized into a cloud when crossing the Red Sea.I Cor 10:2. So you see baptism in and of itself does not always indicate water baptism or a washing as you call it.
     
  4. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Ron Arndt wrote,
    I am getting to be more than a little weary of the misinformation that you are posting on this message board!

    Perhaps it is you who should consult a Greek Lexicon. And why not (except possibly because it retails for $140.00) consult the best, the one that is most frequently (by far) quoted today by New Testament scholars,

    A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition

    If you will consult this lexicon, you will see that what you have posted is false! The word baptism in some contexts does mean “washing.”

    If you do not have this lexicon or easy access to it, open up your King James Bible and read the gospels. If you will do this, you will find that the Greek word translated “wash” in Mar, 7:4 and Luke 11:38 is βαπτισμους, the Greek word for baptize!

    Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

    Luk 11:38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

    I believe that it is the Christian responsibility of everyone posting on a Christian message board to check out their facts before posting. Many people read these threads because they want to learn the truth. When false information is posted, the readers do not learn the truth.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Ron Arndt wrote,

    Of course not! We never said that it did! Please read our posts more carefully before replying to them!

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    Craigbythesea

    You have indeed painted yourself into a corner by stating Paul was referring to water baptism in Romans 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27. For you see Craig by standing by this position you are saying in so many words a man's old man of sin and rising to a new life cannot happen until one IS baptized IN WATER.For this is what Paul is saying HAPPENS when one is baptized.Romans 6:3-4.

    Also in Galatians 3:27 Paul also states that in this baptism one is CLOTHED or "puts on" Christ. If this again refers to water baptism, then until one is water baptized one has not put on Christ and so is WITHOUT Christ. Is an un-baptized believer without Christ? Craig, you can't have your cake and eat it to. The scriptures mean what they say.

    In the truest sense you have just shaken hands with our Catholic friends. For they to believe that IN water baptism the old man of sin is buried and in baptism we rise up into a newness of life. Hence according to Catholicism, Romans 6:3-4 pictures the new birth.
    So now what shall it be Craig? The baptism of water or the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
     
  7. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Hence according to Catholicism, Romans 6:3-4 pictures the new birth.

    Water baptism, with its imagery of being "buried" and raised up again, indeed does picture the new birth.

    No one in this thread has yet said that baptism is the new birth, despite your false accusations.
     
  8. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Twice I have posted in this very thread a more than adequate rebuttal to your fictitious and nonsensical claims, absolutely and incontrovertibly proving that they ridiculous nonsense, but you have continued to post your nonsense. And not only that, you have posted a blatantly false statement about the meaning of the word “baptism,” and I have proven that that is a blatantly false statement not only by reference to the best lexicon that we have today (published only five years ago), but also by quoting two verses in the gospels from the KJV in which the Greek word means and is translated EXACTLY as you falsely claimed in your post it does NOT mean. And as though that is not enough, you have deliberately and willfully drug the Roman Catholic Church into this thread in such a manner as to malign that church and use the pejorative connotation as an ad hominem attack!

    Therefore, for me to continue fellowshipping with you in this tread would constitute willful sin on my part, and I shall break off of fellowship with you at this time.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Volume I, Pgs. 529-546 has a lengthy study of the word bapto and it's derivatives. Starting from helenistic uses and going through to Christian uses. Dip, plunge (as a dagger), immerse, place into, sink (into sleep, for instance), perish, drown are all possibilities. "the sense of 'to bathe' or 'to wash' is only occassionally found in hellenism" (Pg 530, 2nd paragraph).

    To be honest we must see from whence the Christian ordinance of baptism springs. The "Mikvah" of judaism which knew nothing of the personality of the Holy Spirit but sees the material water as having virtue in and of itself and not as one of His (The Spirit) symbols.

    Acts 19
    Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
    2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Possibly there was a lag time where the post-apostolic early church got stuck in the "water" of the mikvah after the Jewish tradition and slow to realize the symbol of water for the Holy Spirit. There seems to be ancient evidence in the post apostolic early Church fathers for the belief of baptismal regeneration.

    Maybe I'm all wet?

    HankD
     
  10. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    Craigbythesea

    Despite your displeasure at what I posted, you cannot evade the fact that if water baptism is what Paul was speaking of in Romans 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 then one has NOT been identified with Christ in his death or put on Christ UNTIL they have been water baptized according to your thinking.

    Which is it Craig? Is a person placed into the body of Christ by water or by the operation of the Holy Spirit? Which gives new life Craig? Water or the Holy Spirit?
     
  11. On the side of truth

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    Uhmmmm ...wow guys alot of food for thought. Thanks for your replies. Just to make it simple I do NOT believe in baptismal regeneration. That is clearly made up in my mind. My thinking is that this question is one that will be hotly debated for a long time and I only hope that I will cross something that will be convincing. As I was reading your replies a question following the similar vein of thought was this: Is there a difference in being baptized BY the Holy Spirit vs. being baptized OF the Holy Spirit? Is this perhaps the same thing? I am thinking it is but I am not sure.
     
  12. On the side of truth

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    Watchman, my gut instinct thinks you are right. However,I have heard that the Holy Ghost baptism that John talked about was what happened on Pentecost and that it was never to have happened since. That is why our pastor believes that for TODAY there is only one baptism which he defines as water. Is this true? Is there a difference between Holy Spirit Baptism and Holy Ghost baptism??? What are your thoughts?
     
  13. On the side of truth

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    WOW!!! Thanks for a very clear and concise explanation. I really appreciate your scripture back-up as I know that is what the Holy Spirit will use to teach us. If you have any other thoughts and verses it will be appreciated. Thanks again.
     
  14. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    WOW!!! Thanks for a very clear and concise explanation. I really appreciate your scripture back-up as I know that is what the Holy Spirit will use to teach us. If you have any other thoughts and verses it will be appreciated. Thanks again. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi On the side of truth,

    Welcome to the Baptist Board! [​IMG]

    I suggest that you read this entire thread, for if you do, you will see that Ron Arndt has made some very serious errors in his interpretation of the Scriptures that he used in his argument that has been refuted by others in this thread. Notice especially his insistent use of the word “UNTIL” in all capital letters even though this is NOT implied in Romans 6 and is explicitly contradicted in Acts.

    I pray that we will be a blessing to you, and you to us.

    [​IMG]
     
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