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Featured Is salvation available?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 16, 2022.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is the heart-felt question of one Calvinist:
    ...do 'slacking soulwinners' result in MORE people going to hell? ...

    ...do diligent soulwinners result in MORE people going to heaven?
    The Calvinism answer is no, God determined those going to heaven, and thus the rest not going to heaven before creation.
    The Scriptural answer is yes, diligent evangelism "hastens the day" thus more people per time interval, so the end of the age occurs sooner, resulting in less people not going to heaven.

    Two very different gospels...
     
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The man-centered Calvinist doctrine makes God responsible for the lost going into eternal punishment, scripture indicates some of the lost might be saved through effective witness. For example, some people would have repented had they seen the miracles Jesus performed elsewhere. Or the fields are white with harvest.

    Do the lost, living today, have an opportunity for salvation, or is the outcome of their life a foregone conclusion? Calvinism says "a foregone conclusion" but scripture says the kingdom of God is at hand.

    Two very different gospels...
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Calvinist doctrine claims the lost have no opportunity to choose life, because the outcome of their life is a foregone conclusion.
    Not the gospel of Christ...

    Mark 1:15
    and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

    According to Calvinism, Jesus is mistaken as the lost are not able to repent or believe.

    According to Calvinism, the good news is an illusion, as there is no opportunity for salvation among those previously consigned to Hades and Gehenna. Jesus says "seek God" but Calvinism says no lost person ever seeks God.

    On and on folks, two very different gospels...
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) and therefore corporately chose those who the Redeemer would redeem. However no individual was chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world because all those individually chose existed before as "not a people" and as having "not obtained mercy." 1 Peter 2:9-10.

    Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be unbiblical nonsense numerous times. If the lost are in a "hardened state" why did God need to harden them in Romans 11?

    John 6:37 - Everyone God gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away."
    Note the tense, God gives, not God has given before creation. So this verse supports individual election during the lifetime of the believer.

    How could believer's hasten the day of Christ's return, if the outcome of the lives of the lost were not altered? (2 Peter 3:12)
     
    #4 Van, Jan 16, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao

    Source material;
     
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  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    All Hail human effort and human free will. May Man be praised for it is man that has wisely chosen the correct path to God. :Whistling:Whistling:Whistling:Rolleyes:Rolleyes:RolleyesConfusedConfusedConfused
     
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  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Active Member

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    Van. Before the thread degenerates too far I would like to say something. First of all, those are fair questions. And there are Calvinists who not only don't prioritize evangelism but they would deride the term "soulwinning". William Carey, who is by many considered the father of modern missions, once was told by a Calvinist at a meeting where he was proposing a mission to India, "Young man, sit down. When God wants to convert the heathen he will do it without your help or mine".

    But it's also true that William Carey was a Calvinist himself, and the son of the man who allegedly said that became his co-worker. And he was also a Calvinist. (Particular Baptists, I believe.) Jonathan Edwards had a mission school and a work among American Indians. You can still read some of his sermons geared especially to them. He was a colleague with David Brainerd who also worked with Indians. Both Calvinists. Edwards devoted much of his writing to the first Great Awakening and no one can question his burning desire for revival and his prayer for revival among the colonies. John Bunyan spent 12 years in prison and could have left any time if he would only agree not to preach any more without a license, yet he would not because his work was too important. Calvinists have been burned alive for preaching and trying to get God's word into the hands of common people. So your charges, while they do occur, are not true as an overall truth.

    Regarding the quotes above, the Calvinistic answer is yes in both cases, with the understanding that those actions were part of God's plan. Their failure did not take God by surprise. That takes away nothing from the reality of what people do. You should read Horatius Bonar's "Words to Winners of Souls" if you don't believe me. Also, read Paul Washer's "The Gospel's Power and Message", for a current contemporary view of Calvinist's witnessing.

    While I do respect your question, and I understand it in light of Calvinist philosophical meanderings about free will and divine determinism - it simply is not true that Calvinists do not believe in evangelism. I would go so far as to say the modern missionary movement is largely Calvinist in origin.
     
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  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    [1] “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:3-6 (God determined, who goes to heaven, and before ‘creation’ - so check!)

    [2] A word search turned up no examples of the phrase “hastens the day” in the Bible. Can you provide a verse?


    They are two different Gospels, but only one is actually found in Scripture.
     
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  9. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
    12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    "

    2 Peter 3:12 says that we as believers are hastening unto ( hurrying towards ) the coming of the day,
    but I do not know where the Bible says that believers can influence the Lord to come sooner than His planned time, which is immediately after the Tribulation ( Matthew 24:29-21 ).

    To answer the OP, yes they are two very different gospels.

    One tells us that God has chosen a people for Himself, given them to His Son to save, wrote their names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, and no man can resist His will;
    The other tells us that we as men have it within our "power" to influence the final outcome and "change the dynamic"...

    One says that the promise of eternal life is defined as "as many as the Lord our God shall call" through His Spirit and the preaching of His word,
    while the other says that the number of those that are saved is directly influenced by the actions and will of men, and that names can be added to the Book of Life based on those actions.

    Acts of the Apostles 2, Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11, John 6, John 8, John 10, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and many other passages tell us that God is the one who does everything necessary to save someone, and He does not rely on the will and power of mere men to do His own work...

    But that He does work through men ( Philippians 2:13 ) and angels to bring about His will.
     
    #9 Dave G, Jan 16, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Calvinists preach because of their love for the Gospel and their fellow man.

    A cold Calvinist is an unbeliever.
     
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  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Ah, the famous misquote and twist the Calvinist keep on pushing. Read what follows, "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"

    Yes, God's CHOICE here is, that we be "holy and without blame", nothing about predestined to salvation!
     
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  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Really? WHY the need to preach the Gospel at all, when it is clear for Calvinistic theology, that all those who God has preordained to eternal life, the elect, WILL be saved??? These are supposed to be chosen before the foundation of the world, as the elect. So, WHAT is the purpose of even telling them the Good News, as they WILL be saved???

    Such is the NONSENSE this UNBIBLICAL man-made theology teaches!
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    then WHY the need to preach the Gospel, and entreat the lost to come to Jesus Christ as their Saviour, as these already have their names in the Book of Life?

    This is UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE!
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    says your theology, the Bible DISAGREES with you!

    "O stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always RESIST (ἀντιπίπτω, to be adverse, oppose, strive against) the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so you do" (Acts 7:51)

    The context here is salvation.

    Jesus Himself told the Jews who wanted to murder Him;

    "and you are NOT WILLING come to Me that you might have life" (John 5:40)

    And, Paul in Acts

    "Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, and said, “It was necessary that God’s word should be spoken to you first. Since indeed you REJECT IT from yourselves, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles" (13:46)
     
  15. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    So salvation is based on the works of men is literally what this says Van....
     
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  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    This is probably the clearest proof that you do not understand reformed theology if you think it is man-centered....
     
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  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Again, you prove you do not actually know our position or what Scripture states on the matter. Read Romans 3
     
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  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Even here, that is GOD CHOOSING, not the individual choosing God.
     
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  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I guess you ignore verse five....
     
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  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Direct quotes from Scripture are unbiblical nonsense? We evangelize because we are commanded to.
     
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