Is the Church Irrelevant?

[Stopgap]

Some things will need to be done differently in 2026 from the First Century (about which we only really know what is recorded in Acts and the Epistles of Scripture.)

You could be right about that, but I just don't think erecting physical structures and operating them like businesses is the way it ought to be done and is not the standard that I want to be held to.

 

[Stopgap]

Are you saying that you are against Bible Colleges? I believe that anyone going into the ministry ought to be fully equipped and prepared to do so! Plus those who teach in these Bible Colleges have to be able to pay their bills and feed their families and the scriptures clearly state that the "Laborer is worthy of his hire!"

I'm saying that a college education is not required to fully understand the Bible or teach others about it. I do think there is value in learning how to understand the original languages, but the Holy Spirit has revealed to us everything we need to know in our hundreds of English translations.

I do believe that ministers are entitled to be compensated for their labor, but concepts such as salaries and health care benefits did not exist in the first century. I believe what Paul had in mind were traveling preachers who would need to be provided with basic needs, such as food, clothing, water, and shelter.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I'm saying that a college education is not required to fully understand the Bible or teach others about it. I do think there is value in learning how to understand the original languages, but the Holy Spirit has revealed to us everything we need to know in our hundreds of English translations.

I do believe that ministers are entitled to be compensated for their labor, but concepts such as salaries and health care benefits did not exist in the first century. I believe what Paul had in mind were traveling preachers who would need to be provided with basic needs, such as food, clothing, water, and shelter.

You do not HAVE to have a college education but being largely "Self-Taught" myself (yes, I have a Seminary degree but self-taught long before this), I certainly would not say this is the path of least resistance! If you believe you are called to ministry and have opportunity to attend a Bible College or Seminary, you should definitely do so! You will be better equipped and the learning process is much more efficient. I would say this especially pertinent when it comes to the languages.

Salaries and health-care benefits did not exist for anyone in the first century did it? Paul had his "Tent Job" but I believe he made it clear that he was an exception. Traveling preachers is one thing but Churches have pastors who live in and are part of the community. They have families, house payments, and other financial obligations. Many pastors are bi-vocational but such also forces one to adjust priorities that are not always in the best interest of the congregation! You often get what you pay for and if a congregation is able to provide an adequate salary where one does not have to worry about their financial well-being, it enables someone to be a better pastor! I plan on traveling about and preaching in churches all around the Philippines and other places in the near future and will likely operate as you have pretty much stated (get me there, feed me, give me a place to sleep, send me away, etc.) but I am also largely self-supporting with money from retirement and a few business endeavors.

 

[Ben1445]

Well, since the concept of Bible colleges and charging folks on how to be educated on the Bible is nowhere to be found in the New Testament, that kind of logic falls apart.

Not necessarily.
Folks labor in the Word and should expect to be worthy of their hire.
So there is Scriptural basis for this. And we see a pattern of coming to a place where the Scriptures are kept and taught. Jesus attended the synagogues and so did Paul continue teaching in the synagogues. So the the idea of people collecting at a particular meeting house is not new to churches or abandoned by churches either.

Paul passed down what he learned to Timothy and expected him to pass it on to others. Where there are areas of confusion, it's up to the Holy Spirit to lead one into complete and total understanding.

And in the OT you have the sons of the prophets which is about as close to a Bible college in Scripture you will find anywhere. So once again, the OT had it first and not in a commandment of the Law, just in practice.
So again I find that OT Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness and contains exactly of instruction in righteousness.

In response to your other point, I would rather gather for fellowship in 120-degree weather in the Mojave Desert before ever going back to one of these businesses masquerading as a place of worship.

Just from reading what you have written, it looks like you have thrown out the baby with the bath water. With whom do you assemble in the Mojave Desert? I take it you are part of the house church movement then?

I'm not saying this about you or anyone else here, but based on my own experiences, most pastors appear to be frauds,

I can’t agree or disagree with you here. I don’t know what your experiences have been. But I do know that it is possible. I’m sorry that this is your experience. I’m interested to know what kinds of churches you have attended to gather your experiences.

and churchgoing people are some of the most irritating individuals I have ever met.

So have you stopped going to church? That is not a biblical stance to take. It wasn’t when Harold Camping advocated for it and it isn’t right just because you find people there who irritate you now.
But if you’re part of the house church movement, I’ve got some news for you that should not be a surprise to you. It is the people who are the church that you have been advocating for that are the irritation that you have mentioned. So you appear to be guilty of equating a location with the church and ignoring the fact that the people are the church.
But again, irritation with the body of Christ is not a good reason to amputate yourself.
Quite often in churches the rash of irritation people tend to amputate is themselves.
I don’t mean to say that this is you in particular but I don’t exclude the possibility. I do hope you will pardon my boldness while absent from your own church. I don’t have plans to come to visit, I am not Paul, but I can say that I would rather be bold in pen and see people work as the unified body of Christ than a softy.
I hope I have misunderstood your situation but that kind of sums up what I think I have read.

 

[Stopgap]

You do not HAVE to have a college education but being largely "Self-Taught" myself (yes, I have a Seminary degree but self-taught long before this), I certainly would not say this is the path of least resistance!

Well, Jesus' disciples didn't have to go to a Bible college either. He just opened their minds to understand the scriptures—as is the case with all of Christ's sheep who know Him and hear His voice.

You often get what you pay for and if a congregation is able to provide an adequate salary where one does not have to worry about their financial well-being, it enables someone to be a better pastor!

The last thing Paul was worried about was his financial well-being, and he was without a doubt the greatest minister of the Gospel who ever lived. I'm not saying being a preacher isn't a tough job and certainly isn't suitable for me, but self-sacrifice is what it's all about.

 

[Stopgap]

And we see a pattern of coming to a place where the Scriptures are kept and taught. Jesus attended the synagogues and so did Paul continue teaching in the synagogues.

Jesus was a Jew still under the OT law, so it's obvious that He would, and Paul went to the synagogues to win the lost over to the Lord—not the same thing as a worship service.

So again I find that OT Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness and contains exactly of instruction in righteousness.

Correct, and in many places the OT commands us not to have idols, which sadly the building has become for many Protestants these days.

With whom do you assemble in the Mojave Desert? I take it you are part of the house church movement then?

I was using a metaphor; I don't actually gather in the Mojave Desert. I assemble with my brothers and sisters in Christ as the occasion presents itself. This might include coffee shops, public libraries, or online platforms such as this one.

I’m interested to know what kinds of churches you have attended to gather your experiences.

Mostly Baptist and nondenominational.

So have you stopped going to church? That is not a biblical stance to take.

No. I stopped going to business buildings that call themselves churches. The biblical stance is that if you're a believer, then you're "in church" all the time.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Well, Jesus' disciples didn't have to go to a Bible college either. He just opened their minds to understand the scriptures—as is the case with all of Christ's sheep who know Him and hear His voice.

Who are we talking about here? Wouldn't you consider the Lord Jesus Christ as being the best possible Seminary Professor of all time?

The disciples were with Jesus for three years pretty much day and night! You tell me how to correllate this over to college credit hours! I would say at the very least, their education was equivalent to an MDiv or possibly a ThM?

The last thing Paul was worried about was his financial well-being, and he was without a doubt the greatest minister of the Gospel who ever lived. I'm not saying being a preacher isn't a tough job and certainly isn't suitable for me, but self-sacrifice is what it's all about.

God took care of Paul and I am certain that if God wanted you to attend Dallas Theological Seminary, he would provide the means for you to pay their $700 per credit-hour tuition! As for me, I am not nearly as impressed with that bunch. Paul was also extremely well educated as a pharisee studying under Gamaliel and I am certain God used this to providentially prepare him to write nearly half of the New Testament scriptures!

 

[Ben1445]

I believe what Paul had in mind were traveling preachers who would need to be provided with basic needs, such as food, clothing, water, and shelter.

Are you sure you are not a Methodist?
I think Peter Cartwright had the same idea, no? Well maybe not exactly.
But do you have something against a local pastor? They did have those in the first century.
And basic needs can be quantified.
A budget tells you how much it costs to give your pastor his basic needs. The food budget, clothing budget, utilities,
( I hope you don’t mind that I include electricity, but if you do, you must allow for oil for the lamps. I can provide first century references for their legitimate use by the pastor.)
housing allowance (shelter budget) and possibly some other means of ability to also be able to give to others may be quantified in the form of money. I promise you that it is not only proper but economical for the church to provide this as a salary instead of an hourly wage. Think about that for a moment or two.
But there is also the cheap way too. You can find him a cave to live in(shelter) and bring him the fresh meat and fish you hunted down with some leafy greens (food) bring some bottles of water, did they have plastic in the first century? On second thought, it would be more biblical to bring skins of water. That would be in better keeping with the first century. Some camel skins for clothes and people will really come out to hear the preacher!! Maybe once. They might not come back after they smell him.
I’m sorry if I sound a bit ridiculous but if you try something like this you will be one of those people the pastor’s wife finds irritating.

I don’t see why the rest of the world may be in the twenty first century but the pastor must act as if he is in the first century.

When your pastor is too old to function as your pastor, what do you do with him?
Do you send him on his way and say be warmed and filled?
Do you just say don’t worry, God feeds the sparrows so we aren’t going to feed you anymore?
They tried this sort of thing a few decades back. Pastors found life quite difficult after leaving a parsonage with no equity and no savings to speak of and no job to pay the bills.
They and their experiences have been going around teaching younger pastors to think ahead a little bit. Not to build bigger barns, just to leave an inheritance for their children’s children. Proverbs 13:22

 

[Ben1445]

Jesus was a Jew still under the OT law, so it's obvious that He would, and Paul went to the synagogues to win the lost over to the Lord—not the same thing as a worship service.



Correct, and in many places the OT commands us not to have idols, which sadly the building has become for many Protestants these days.

I think you imagine this. My opinion.
Since I was a child I have heard often in church services that the church/assembly is the people and not the place. I have been in several churches, heard many different preachers and I have yet to find any that think the building is what Jesus gave Himself for.

I was using a metaphor; I don't actually gather in the Mojave Desert. I assemble with my brothers and sisters in Christ as the occasion presents itself. This might include coffee shops, public libraries, or online platforms such as this one.

This is not an assembly.
We are not together. You may at best call this writing letters, but not assembling.

But while you’re here, let’s sing together!

Mostly Baptist and nondenominational.

No. I stopped going to business buildings that call themselves churches. The biblical stance is that if you're a believer, then you're "in church" all the time.

You are assembling all the time??
Be real.
You assemble at bedtime?
You get up and assemble before breakfast?
You assemble at breakfast?
You assemble at the punch clock?
You assemble on the job?
You assemble at lunch break?
You assemble on afternoon turn?
Midnight shift?

I don’t think you have a realistic idea of what an ecclesia is.

So you are the unchurching.

 

[Stopgap]

This is not an assembly.
We are not together. You may at best call this writing letters, but not assembling.

I accept writing to other believers as a valid form of assembly if Paul thought it so.

Colossians 2:5
For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

 

[Ben1445]

I accept writing to other believers as a valid form of assembly if Paul thought it so.

Colossians 2:5
For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

No doubt you have heard this objection to your position from Scripture and have justified your own view, but Paul also said,

Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


And yes I am persuaded that Hebrews is a Pauline epistle.

 

[Ben1445]

I accept writing to other believers as a valid form of assembly if Paul thought it so.

Colossians 2:5
For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

Have you now attended church for the week because you posted on the BB?

 

[Stopgap]

God took care of Paul and I am certain that if God wanted you to attend Dallas Theological Seminary, he would provide the means for you to pay their $700 per credit-hour tuition!

Christ is perfectly capable of teaching His sheep. I could give $700 to someone who would actually need it instead of enabling some college dean to continue to line his pockets.

 

[Stopgap]

Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

This verse is often misused and abused by those who would attempt to guilt trip and control the lives of others. Forsaking the assembly was in the context of returning to a previously adhered to religious system, such as temple worship. Forsaking the traditions of men is quite different.

 

[Stopgap]

Have you now attended church for the week because you posted on the BB?

Again, there is no such thing as "church attendance" if one is in Christ. That's a man made construct.

 

[Ben1445]

This verse is often misused and abused by those who would attempt to guilt trip and control the lives of others. Forsaking the assembly was in the context of returning to a previously adhered to religious system, such as temple worship. Forsaking the traditions of men is quite different.

So you have not forsaken “previously adhered to religious system, such as temple worship?”

You still do what Paul said not to forsake?
Or you have decided that there are some first century practices that you don’t have to do anymore?

It sounds like you have your own arbitrary rules for what to retain from the first century and what to leave behind.

You talk about misusing Scripture. Your own misuse of the text is glaring.

 

[Ben1445]

Again, there is no such thing as "church attendance" if one is in Christ. That's a man made construct.

1 Corinthians 11:18
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

By definition of usage, they were coming together as an assembly, not just in spirit.

Too bad you weren’t there to correct Paul for referring to the church in light of a man made construct.

 

[Stopgap]

So you have not forsaken “previously adhered to religious system, such as temple worship?”

The author's audience were Jews who sacrificed bulls and goats. Since I'm not a Jew and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, obviously that doesn't apply to myself or most of us here. It's not that difficult to figure out.

You talk about misusing Scripture. Your own misuse of the text is glaring.

LOL, well that's just rich. Considering how legalistic you are about everything, I'm assuming that you're involved in some IFB circus somewhere, of which I want no part of.

By definition of usage, they were coming together as an assembly, not just in spirit.

Too bad you weren’t there to correct Paul for referring to the church in light of a man made construct.

When he communicated to Christians by written word, it was just as good as if he was there with them physically. His words, not mine. If you want to call Paul a liar and accuse him of sinning, have at it. I'm sure that won't go over well in the end.

 

[Ascetic X]

This verse is often misused and abused by those who would attempt to guilt trip and control the lives of others. Forsaking the assembly was in the context of returning to a previously adhered to religious system, such as temple worship. Forsaking the traditions of men is quite different.

Not forsaking the assembly of ourselves together is not necessarily referencing temple worship. Early believers assembled primarily in homes.

Hebrews 10:25

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

[Stopgap]

Not forsaking the assembly of ourselves together is not necessarily referencing temple worship. Early believers assembled primarily in homes.

Who was the author of Hebrews' target audience? Was it Jewish believers who were under persecution and were tempted to go back to animal sacrifices, or was it Christians who were skipping church because they wanted to sleep in on Sunday?

I'm hoping at least one person can be honest about this.