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Is there a retitle suggestion for Calvinism and Arminianism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 9, 2012.

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  1. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    It's ok{edit}, you do it all the time. And no, he suggested that either you didn't believe in the trinity or you were confusing the terms. In other words, you were not being consistent. He wasn't saying that you didn't believe in the trinity. Stop reading in to things others say and cry victim. No one is falling for it. I've have at least 2-3 times asked you a simple question and you refuse to answer it. Instead you cry about me misrepresenting you instead of just asking the question. Grow up!

    Sorry, but you have been proven wrong over and over and over again.
     
    #241 jbh28, Jan 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2012
  2. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Seriously brother, do you ever think van is going to come around to truth theologically?

    I am surprised that you've gone down into the arena of the tactics of a certain tribe of non-cals and have used pejoratives. You're way above that.
     
    #242 preacher4truth, Jan 21, 2012
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  3. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I'm simply pointing out how he talks out of both sides of his mouth. He's very quick to say people are "attacking" him, but he'll turn right around and attack others. He said in another thread that attacking others shouldn't be done. I'm trying to let him know how often he's actually guilty of it. This particular instance, he took something beyond what the poster said to make it appear as if it was an attack, which it wasn't.

    However, you are correct in that I shouldn't have used a derogatory name. Of which I have removed from my previous post. I shouldn't do that which I'm saying is wrong. I guess I was being hypocritical.
     
    #243 jbh28, Jan 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2012
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Thats why he is one of standing members in my "Ignore" club! And standing cause I wont give him a chair. :D
     
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I think both groups need to have the same name.

    I ---I'm
    R---right
    Y---you
    A---are
    W--wrong



    :laugh::tongue3::laugh:
     
  6. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    That's something for me to consider! :thumbsup:
     
  7. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    love it! :)
     
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I thought about IRA and ROTH

    I'm - Always - Right

    Righteous - Only - Through - Him
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Ok. You win. THAT is funny! :laugh:
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to Old Regular

    Sir, you can charge me with eisegesis till the cows come home, why not stick with refuting my actual position?

    Next,you offer an alternate understanding of what "in Him" adds to Ephesians 1:4. Apparently you think God chose foreseen individuals and put this "folks" into the body of Christ, before Christ died on the cross. Question for you, Sir, where were the OT saints confined to "Abraham's bosom" before Christ died? How come they were not in "Christ's bosom?" Your position is a fiction.

    Yes I do persist in saying God chose Christ to be His Lamb, and hence His Redeemer. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Christ means Anointed One and when a person is anointed that means they have been chosen for some purpose which the anointing prepares them for.

    Certainly salvation is the work of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But scripture provides us with some specific details, such as the Holy Spirit sets us apart in Christ based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

    Sir, to say God chose Christ as His Redeemer is neither meaningless nor nonsense, because He did and He did it before the foundation of the world.

    You sidestepped the idea that if God chose you for salvation by means of faith in the truth, then our election occurs during our lifetime, after we put our faith in Christ. You seem to deny 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to Slander

    To question whether I believe in the Trinity is an attack.


    No that is what Calvinists do. They say I want to shift blame, or claim the high ground, when all I want is to discuss our differing positions and not my behavior.

    First "en" is used about ten different ways in the Bible. One of those ways is to say "by means of". This is how "en" is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. That is why every major translation translates "en" as "by" or "through" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. This is the truth you have run away from.

    No that is what you are doing by abandoning every translation. I am using the meaning that every modern translation uses, by or through.

    Here are some cut and paste Greek Grammar sources:
    "En (Dative)

    1. Spatial/Sphere: in (and various other translations)
    2. Temporal: in, within, when, while, during
    3. Association (often close personal relationship): with
    4. Cause: because of
    5. Instrumental: by, with
    6. Reference/Respect: with respect to/with reference to
    7. Manner: with
    8. Thing Possessed: with (in the sense of which possesses)
    9. Standard (=Dative of Rule): according to the standard of
    10. As an equivalent for eis (with verbs of notion)"

    "En (#1722 evn): En only takes the dative case. When en modifies a noun, the noun will be in the dative case and the preposition will be understood in one of these ten ways:

    1. Sphere: in
    E.g., “I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences” (2 Cor. 5:11).

    2. Spatial: in
    E.g., “there was a woman in the city who was a sinner” (Luke 7:37).

    3. Temporal: in, while, during
    E.g., “in the days of Herod the king” (Matt. 2:1; cp. Matt. 11:22).

    4. Association: with
    E.g., “the Father is in me and I am in the Father” (John 10:38; cp. John 14:20).

    5. Causal: because of
    E.g., “And they glorified God in me” (Gal. 1:24). ESV: “And they glorified God
    because of me.” (Cp. Acts 7:29; Heb. 10:10).

    6. Instrumental: by, with
    E.g., “[Will not the King] consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to
    oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand” (Luke 14:31).

    7. Agency/Means: by means of
    Greek Word List 624
    E.g., “the Pharisees said, ‘He casts out demons by the prince of demons’” (Matt.9:34).

    8. Thing possessed: with, which possesses
    E.g., “there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit” (Mark 1:23; cp.Eph. 6:2).

    9. Standard/Dative of Rule: according to the standard of
    E.g., “as to the righteousness which is in the Law, [I was] found blameless” (Phil.3:6; cp. 2 Tim. 3:16).

    10. Used in place of eis with verbs of motion
    E.g., “to turn… the disobedient to the wisdom of the just” (Luke 1:17; 9:46)."

    QED The Calvinist view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as expressed by Agedman is mistaken, "en" is used as "by means of"
     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    First, let's clear up this contention over whether I attacked you or not. Since you think I (did) do, I apologize.

    It was an honest question that you mistook. It was my responsibility to state the question so that you would not assume a defensive stance. Apparently I did not, and that is again, my fault.

    As I ponder about your post, I questioned why you would post something that so obviously supported what I have been stating, and you have continued to oppose?

    Then, I thought that perhaps in your desiring to hold "en" as showing dynamic (moving) progression rather than a static (non-moving) state, you would grab any thread out of the meaning list and not realize in doing so, it unraveled the whole fabric of your view.



    For all who are reading this thread, here is a link giving extensive original and translations of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. What is neat about this link is, if you highlight and copy it into a Word document, the Greek automatically occurs in the Greek Script.

    Unfortunately, I don't know how to copy it to the BB or I would have done so here.

    http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B53C002.htm#V13



    Van.

    I have pretty much ignored your "by means of" statements thinking that perhaps you were beginning to realize the view you were holding as mistaken. "By means of" is not what you are assigning it to mean.


    As has been the history of this tread, I will illustrate how "by means of" is used within the static placement of "en".

    "What proof do yo have that you are a citizen?
    Is it because you were merely born a citizen, or is it that you have a certificate of birth?

    One proves they are a citizen "by means of" a birth certificate or certificate of citizenship.

    In the example of your post “the Pharisees said, ‘He casts out demons by the prince of demons'" the "by" does not refer back to the casting, but to the one who is casting - a noun - "by means of the prince of demons." Because the word (by means of) is directly attached to a following noun, it must be static and not dynamic.

    I do so hope you soon recognize your inaccuracy!
     
    #252 agedman, Jan 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2012
  13. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    basis of our salvation is NOT because God saw us place personal faith in Christ in order to be saved, but due to Him electing to save us first, and That causes us to get saved...

    Election is basis of salvation by faith in Christ, NOT faith in Chrsit causing the election to happen!
     
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