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Is this an accurate quote?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Pastor_Bob, Jul 25, 2005.

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  1. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Let me say up front that I am getting this information from a secondary source. I learned (the hard way) from my debates in the BV/T Forum that secondary sources cannot always be relied upon to be 100% accurate. In an attempt to know the truth, I am asking if anyone can confirm if this quote is accurate or not.

    If this quote is accurate, the implication seems to be that those babies who are not of the elect who die will spend eternity suffering in hell.
     
    #1 Pastor_Bob, Jul 25, 2005
  2. Kiffen

    Kiffen Member

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    I believe it is, though I think (Not sure) deals with paedobaptist Calvinism view of Infant Baptist. Most paedobaptist churches believe that baptism convers grace to their infants and that they are not to doubt the election of their children. This of course is not agreed on by Reformed Baptists because of our rejection of infant baptism. I have heard that quote but am not sure the source.
     
    #2 Kiffen, Jul 25, 2005
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I don't know if the quote is accurate or not, but it is not Scripture! It is but a human opinion!
     
    #3 Wes Outwest, Jul 25, 2005
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And of course as John Edwards points out from Rev 14:10 - all the saints will be their to "watch them" roasting and suffering - and find it an occassion for rejoicing!
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jul 25, 2005
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Yahoo! just look at them crispy critters just a churnin' 'n' burnin'!

    Don't sound quite like what God has in mind for infants!
     
    #5 Wes Outwest, Jul 25, 2005
  6. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Is the belief that infants of the elect go to heaven when they die, and infants of the non-elect go to hell a commonly held Calvinist belief?
     
    #6 Pastor_Bob, Jul 25, 2005
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If it is, that is not the merciful God I serve!
     
    #7 webdog, Jul 25, 2005
  8. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    To the best of my knowledge, no.
     
    #8 4His_glory, Jul 25, 2005
  9. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    I only speak for myself but "no".
     
    #9 Scott J, Jul 25, 2005
  10. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 10:3

    Again, the implication is that non-elect infants go to hell. Calvin's quote in the OP seems to connect the election of the infant to the parents.
     
    #10 Pastor_Bob, Jul 25, 2005
  11. Karen

    Karen Active Member

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    To the best of my knowledge, no. </font>[/QUOTE]Some do believe that, many, if not most, do not.
    For example, Spurgeon and more recently Al Mohler, Jr. believe that all infants who die are elect.
    Plus it is my understanding that those who do believe that an infant could go to hell believe that the infant would experience it as an adult, so to speak, not as an unaware baby.

    Karen
     
    #11 Karen, Jul 25, 2005
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Then in essence, they were created for hell!?! Can't be, because hell was created for the devil and his angels (although man chooses to go there based on his unbelief).
     
    #12 webdog, Jul 26, 2005
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Infants don't go to hell because Christ is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - 1John 2:2

    And "To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not to HIM it is SIN"

    The infant NEEDS a savior because of its sinful nature - and it has one.

    It is too young to be capable of abstract concepts like rebellion/salvation etc. It is not capable of choice as an infant.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Jul 26, 2005
  14. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    The citation makes absolutely NO reference to the children of the reprobate.
     
    #14 billwald, Jul 26, 2005
  15. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    billwald, what, then, did Calvin believe concerning "children of the reprobate?"
     
    #15 Pastor_Bob, Jul 26, 2005
  16. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    I don't think he says anything about them. It may be that he held the same view as many paedobaptists: that we don't know their fate. God does, but we don't.

    BTW, if you find the reference to the book and chapter etc of Calvin's Institutes that your original quote came from, I'll look it up for you and help you put it in context.

    One thing to remember: "infancy" in the language Calvin wrote in means "younger childhood". It included "babyhood", but it also includes children older than babies, too. So all Calvin is saying in that quote, taken all by itself, is that believers can assume that a child of theirs that dies went to heaven UNLESS that child shows evidence of unbelief, and that believers should automatically be assured that their VERY YOUNG children went to heaven.
     
    #16 russell55, Jul 27, 2005
  17. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    "I inquire again, how it came to pass that the fall of Adam, independent of any remedy, should involve so many nations with their infant children in eternal death, but because such was the will of God. Their tongues, so loquacious on every other point, must here be struck dumb. It is an awful decree, I confess; but no one can deny that God foreknew the future final fate of man before he created him, and that he did foreknow it because it was appointed by his own decree" Institutes - 3.23.7

    "And therefore infants themselves, as they bring their condemnation into the world with them, are rendered obnoxious to punishment by their own sinfulness, not by the sinfulness of another. For though they have not yet produced the fruits of their iniquity, yet they have the seed of it within them; even their whole nature is as it were a seed of sin, and therefore cannot but be odious and abominable to God. Institutes - 2.1.8

    "For the children were so vitiated in their parent, that they became contagious to their descendants: there was in Adam such a spring of corruption, that it is transfused from parents to children in a perpetual stream…. Therefore, as Augustine says, 'Neither the guilty unbe­liever nor the justified believer, generates innocent, but guilty children, because the generation of both is from corrupted nature.'" Institutes - 2.1.7
     
    #17 Pastor_Bob, Jul 28, 2005
  18. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    The last two quotes are just statements of original sin, which is not particular to Calvinism. They are saying that people were born sinners with a nature that's corrupt. All of us are by nature (how we're born) children of God's wrath.

    The first one is arguing from the fact that many nations throughout history were never given the gospel, and so they had no remedy available for their sin, and since God knew that was happening and he could have changed it, then it must have in some way been intended by him. This is all argument supporting the idea that God decreed the fall and the results of the fall. This is, of course, one of the classic objections people have to Calvinism.

    Here's what comes directly after that quote:

    Calvin is arguing, then, that objecting to the idea that God decreed (or intended) the fall and all it's consequences is an argument that God didn't have foresight (prescience), or that he was ignorant of what would happen.

    I just read a quote from C. S. Lewis the other day that argues pretty much the some thing--that what God knows he intends.
     
    #18 russell55, Jul 28, 2005
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