Is this blasphemous enough for you?

I never hear them say anything about Deborah either:

(DRB) Blessed among women be Jahel, the wife of Haber the Cinite, and blessed be she in her tent. (Darby)

The Bible says almost the same thing about Deborah. Is it such a big thing to crow about? She was blessed; yes. She was a vessel used of God in that period of time in history. God chose to use her. Face it. God could have chose to use one of many different virgins at that time. But he chose to use Mary. There were other virgins that would have fit the same criteria, I am sure. The Catholics are bent on Mariolatry, no matter what the case.

 

Great, so we agree that the naming of a church or cathedral after Mary or the saints is not a problem.

I assume you meant the difference between what they say and do.

I would say that Catholics who hold to correct Catholic theology on this issue would not be worshipping while Catholics who do not hold to correct Catholic theology on this issue might be worshipping.

Have you ever lost a close loved one? Maybe you have never "talked" to your dead loved ones with the belief that they can hear you, but I'm sure many Christian non-Catholics do. Can the loved one hear them? I don't know. Is there anything wrong with thinking that they can? I would say no.

 

The divine in this instance is not about spiritual divinity but it is an old english meaning of the word divine meaning "theologian". All the St. John the Divine churches are Anglican or Episcopal since this an english name.

Attitude.
Japanese who bow as a greeting to each other are not worshiping each other.
People who have memorials for dead loved ones with candles lit in front of a photograph are not worshiping them.
People who "talk" to dead love ones and hope they can hear them and maybe put in a good word for them with God are not worshiping them.

I don't think it is a requirement to believe that our dead loved one is omnipresent or omniscient to believe that they can hear us when we "talk" to them.

 

Like I said before, if they have an incorrect understanding of Catholic theology like your example, then yes, they are worshiping.

Like I said before, I don't know if our dead loved ones can hear us.

But people who believe they can, do not usually believe their loved ones are omnipresent and omniscient. Just that they can hear them not knowing how that works.

 

Fair to say. However, it seems you mentioned the naming the church was a problem that you had.

Yet, when was the last time apart from you on this thread have you heard a compliment or a blessing directed towards Jesus' mother? And do you not consider her a great example of faithfulness that we should immitate?

But we focus on John Smyth, Warren Buffett as examples? It doesn't seem we give her equal standing. Why not?

Why not? I for one would like to be as obedient to God's call as she was.

Didn't she have a great approach to God as we see in her visit to Liz?

So, (to play advocate here) you cannot mediate for me? So, its pointless for me to go to you and ask you to intercede for me? Why do our churches even have prayer request since they cannot mediate for me in any way? Or is there a distinguishing thing between Jesus who mediates for me and you? I mean james must be lying when he says to pray for one another. And if James is lying then the bible is lying and people cannot pray for each other which is the same as mediating. I don't think the catholics believe Mary mediates sins in our lives as Jesus does. But they believe she prays for us. Then the question becomes relevant. Do saints in God's presense pray for us? Do they even care?

To be intellectually honest they must be brought in the discussion because the same action is accorded to them.

Consistent

Not at all. I know this missionary in Indonesia who is in hospital. I at the same time know a missionary in Kenya who lost a parent. I am in neither place but I know about these people and their needs. How? I've been given the information. Wouldn't the same go for the saints living in God's presence? I think this is how it is seen.

Fair, but it doesn't say it doesn't happen either. Speculative to be sure. Yet what do you think happens? We go to heaven thumb our nose to those still hear and say "see you latter suckers!" Or being reborn in the image of Christ do we empathize and pray for those here? I think its a valuable question.

Show me.

no different then you and I being mediators for others and didn't she participate in the incarnation? Or did God force it upon her? By the way I don't think catholics use co-mediatrix that would indicate two women mediating. Mediatrix would be their term.

Is it wrong for me to talk to you? which is the term pray (vehicle of communication to people, God, and anything else depending on context) means. As in pray tell, Or Pray mom would you let me go? or I pray thee well? Or I lift up my prayers to God. Language is of the essense and often misapplied depending on context. Just some more thoughts

 

I am fully aware that many, perhaps most, people here believe we will have no powers in the life hereafter that we don’t have here. We will only be able to see and hear those things within our line of sight and our hearing range. We will only be able to be in one place at a time, etc. I have previously referred to this as a pedestrian view of Heaven and I don’t think it is an accurate view of Heaven.

The fact is that the Bible doesn’t say what we will be like. It only says we will be “changed.” 1 Cor. 15:51-52. It is also clear that we will enjoy immortality. Beyond that, the Bible doesn’t say much.

However, the Bible doesn’t attribute the qualities of omniscience and omnipresence exclusively to God and it is not unreasonable to think we will enjoy these gifts. We certainly have reason to believe Heaven is a place where time as we know it does not exist. If there is no time, there would be no hindrance to the hearing and acting on millions of prayers during the course of a day. Immortality is a God-like quality and if we have that, why wouldn’t we have other God-like qualities? After all, the only quality that belongs exclusively to God is the ability to create something out of nothing.

That is why I believe the Communion of Saints is a doctrine that may have merit. It really comes down to what is your concept of what powers we will have after we leave this earth. If you have a pedestrian concept of Heaven, then you cannot possibly believe in the Communion of Saints. However, if you have a soaring expansive concept of Heaven, the Communion of Saints is normal and natural.

 

No, can you show me where these are exclusive attributes of God?

Omnipotence, yes. Omnicience, maybe. Omnipresence, I think not. Even today, Ann, bound by our earthly bodies and by the limits of space and time, we can for all practical purposes be in more than one place at a time. About a month ago, I was in a meeting where some of us were in one city and another group were in a city more than 100 miles away. We were connected by TV screens and sound projectors. I knew everything that was going on in the other location and with my image projected there, I was virtually there. So omnipresence is not that big a deal. The Bible does not contradict these ideas. All you can say is that it isn't in the Bible but neither is there any prophecy of automobiles, computers or space travel. (Actually there is some prophecy of the automobile. "They were in one Accord." :laugh:

Happy, ignorant and impotent? I think I want more than that.

 

I have no problem with either. I've seen churches dedicated to all sorts of people and causes. To me its an irrelevant issue one way or another and it should be to all Christians to be honest. But dedicated or not its not the person who is being worshiped but God. That person is just being honored or remembered.

It doesn't say not to venerate people in the bible. Often people are venerated in the bible. Gideon, Joshua, Deborah, Esther, etc...

How much is writen about Jair?

I'd like to drop the word obedience in here a rare trait among men.

Epistles have a specific perpose to the people whom they are writen no need to write about Mary. usually they are dealing with simple things like "STOP SINNING!" or "DON't FAVOR RICH PEOPLE" or "STOP LISTENING TO THE JUDIAZERS" Etc... Discussion of Mary seems a little beyond that.

The fact that she should be honored as the bible suggest just like the lady with the Jar of Oil should be honored everytime the story is told.

The fact she's in there is special attention and the fact that she's Jesus' mother is special unless of course Jesus isn't special. Also what does it say about her? Obedient.

Southern Baptist church that has a 40 day study on just about everything (thanks rick warren ;-)). I've heard sermons on wonderful missionaries who have passed on but had shared the gospel in the most diverse circumstances. These are given more respect than the lords mom. Look at DHK's answer. Any virgin would do. Really? I'd rather doubt that. I suppose any woman would do as his wife. Thats a poor view of women in general. I'd rather doubt God had such a lax attitude about whom he chose. I believe women should be held in hire regard than that and the woman chosen by God should be special not just any mo around. But a faithful, obdient servant, who loved God dearly. Just like I wouldn't have chosen just any woman to have my children. Though unfortunately maybe I'm singular in that. There are many men who feel any woman is good enough. I just have one thing to say about that 51% divorse rate!

Nothing but it shows her heart much like David's who was a man after God's own heart. Both should be honored and imitated.

Yeah, maybe God should have used a protitute it would go a lot further in inclusion of sinners. ;-)

What did it cost you? But essentially we all do. Though in my life I tend to be closer to Zachariah than Mary.

Same thing. Mediate

Intersessory prayers fall into this catagory.

Yes in which you are "acting through an intervening agency". It is only Jesus however that can cancel out our sins. So you have to be specific on what you mean by mediate. I can mediate for you by making request before God.

As I've shown. same thing save it is our sins he deals with you are making intersession which is mediation.

I have you are acting on my behalf thus "acting thorugh an intervening agency" even moses did this before God with the snakes.

Yes they do. Just like the prayers of an effective man avails much. Same consept.

I don't see that anywhere taught by the Catholic church. Not in any of their documents.

Repent and be baptized everyone of you.

Its not in scripture. I've said its speculation but what do you think happens when we go before God? Are we so self centered that we say "Sorry chap. I'm in heaven and your still in your sucky life? I doubt it. Note the parrable of Jesus where the rich man calls up to Lazerus. I don't think Lazerus was doing nothing. The prayers of the saints are lifted up like incense in a discription in Rev. The white clad martyrs are calling out for justice. There seems to be a lot of communal activity in heaven.

.
So when I'm dead I'm in nihilo? No. I believe in the resurrection and life everlasting. I don't believe I will ever die. My body will but I have everlasting life. When your body dies are you no longer existant?

I think I will be praying for the deliverance of all those who belong to God because I will take on his likeness and will be more conserned about the entire body of Christ than myself. Though I believe I will also be offering paise and adoration before God. I believe I will be active even as his angels are active making constant request before God on our behalf.

I don't think that apparition is canon in the Catholic Church. By the way where does it say mary is god?

No one ever said she merited anything. However, I will not diminish her role in the incarnation. Just like I won't diminish Joshuas role in bringing down the walls of Jericho. Joshua participated in that salvation did he not? But all glory for it goes to God. Thus the incarnation.

That's all? its a rare thing indeed. Something to be called praise worthy don't you think. To obey God like that? I wish I would be more that way.

I co mediate too. Its my job to pray for others.

Yep we all agree on this.

You can when that is what they are doing.

.Yes and the oposit is true to you can make an entreaty to a person and not to God.

That is for God alone. Not for the saints. Anyway that is what the catholic church says about it.

 

Here is what the Bible says:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

In the OT the Levitical priests interceded on behalf of or performed a mediatorial service on behalf of the Israelite. When an Israelite sinned, he/she brought their sacrifice to the priest, and he was the one who had to sacrifice it for them. They could not sacrifice if for themselves; a priest had to do it for them.
The RCC has patterned their system after this OT Levitical system, which has been done away with. The author of the Book of Hebrews spends much time in showing how the Levitical priesthood is of no more effect.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:10-12 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

There are no more sacrifices for sins. Christ, in one sacrifice, paid for them all. (Thus OSAS)

He alone is our mediator. He alone is the one that we must go through. He said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
He is the only way!

Even after salvation he remains the only way of approach to God.
He is the only mediator that the believer has. There is none other.

A mediator is like a lawyer, an advocate. He represents you. Christ represents me as I go to the Father in prayer. I cannot stand before a Holy God, a Holy Father. I can only do so because I am covered with the blood of Christ; his righteousness. I cannot stand before God and mediate for your sins. Only Christ can do that, and only if you are saved.

Only Christ can be your mediator.
I can pray for you, for your needs, for the needs of your relatives, etc.
But I cannot mediate for you. There is one mediator and that is Christ. There is only one person that can stand between you and God, and that is not me, and certainly not Mary--it is Christ alone.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

You didn't answer my question. WHO attributed these things only to God? Annsni? The Bible doesn't say they belong exclusively to God. I'm not saying they belong to mortal men but they do belong to us in our glorified state. Can you prove me wrong?

Exactly! If we can be virtually in several places now, just think what miraculous things we can do in that higher "plane of existence."

No, too much responsibility. I might forget to do something. Seriously though, I think you're going to be surprised at the powers you have in Heaven. One thing is absolutely for sure, either you will be surprised or I will be disappointed.

 

Why not?
The Bible states that we will be learning in heaven. We will never stop learning about God and Christ in heaven. Thus we will not be omniscient. We never will be. To say so is blasphemy for this trait belongs only to God.

 

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
--His judgments are unsearchable. That speaks of omniscience. Will yours be unsearchable? No. This is a description of God alone.
--His ways are past finding out. No man can find out his "ways." They are incomprehensible now, and will be the same in heaven.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord?
--Do you know his mind? Will you ever? Even in heaven? Then you will never be omniscient. It is blasphemous to claim to be god, which is what Satan did in Isaiah 14. You are doing the same thing if claiming omniscience.

or who hath been his counsellor?
--Can you ever be in the place of God's counsellor? The answer here is obvious.

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
--Of him are all things. What about you?

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Isaiah 14:13-15 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.