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Is this statement true or false?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jarthur001, Apr 27, 2006.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Thanks to Claudia and Kamaroso for actually looking up the references in "scriptura" to see what the "sola scriptura" response would be to this question about "the TEXT".

    Odd that they are the only ones so far that seem to care enough to go look and SEE what "the text" says "sola scriptura" when it comes to this simple question.

    Now I have the task of compiling their answers into a single reference document of "sola scriptura" examples that apply to the question asked.

    What a great thing it is when you can discuss a subject like this "sola scriptura"!!

    How wonderful if a few more posters on this thread that appear to have interest in the topic HAD had enough interest "sola scriptura" to look into the facts and respond with the examples "sola scriptura".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    All true, except for the fact that the term "angel" merely means messenger. It do not always mean angelic being.

    For example:

    "And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush
    burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed." Ex. 3:2

    Then this Angel says in verse 6:

    "Moreover He said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

    Of course this is Jesus (John 8:24,58) sent by the Father as a messanger, i.e., an Angel of the Lord.

    You will find Jesus also called an Angel of the LORD in Judges 6 and 13.
     
  3. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    I disagree. When angelic beings appeared to such people as Daniel in the OT, they never told him to take off his shoes because they are standing on holy ground as God told Moses in Ex.3. According to Rev. 19:10 they are just fellow servants.

    That was indeed Jesus in Ex. 3 sent by the Father as a messanger, an Angel of the LORD, as the Lord Himself attests in John 8:24,58.

    And anyone who knows any Hebrew knows that one can call Jesus, Who is fully God, an Angel of the LORD without making any reference to an angelic created being.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    My first "reference file" summary of the points listed by Keith and Claudia "sola scriptura" deals with their first point observation from scripture on this subject.


    Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

    The angel of the LORD which spoke to Moses, was in fact YHWH according to this text above!

    Is God an “Angel” ?? No! But He appears at times in the OT as the “Angel of the LORD”. In Gen 18:1-3 he appears along with two Angels as “3 men walking toward Abram”. Is God simply “a man”? Are angels really “men”?? No!

    Now note the following-
    God IS the great *I AM*. In fact specifically Christ HIMSELF is the great “I AM” (YHWH) of the OT

    God, YHWH, “The Angel of the Lord” – Jesus Christ (God the Son) all referenced in that term.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Many thanks for that "sola scriptura" response Keith and Claudia! Always good to have this important "first point" on the subject.

    Now for the "Second point".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Dustin

    Dustin New Member

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    Right Right.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Second point from their posts -

    Who will bless Abraham and multiply his seed? Notice the transition from *angel of the LORD* in verse 15 to the LORD (Jesus Christ) in verse 16? In vs 16 the reader (and Abraham) is told by it is “saith the LORD (YHWH)”
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  7. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    It is a great pity that you guys don't distinguish between El and Malack as English Bibles don't distinguish them.

    1. El or Elohim ( plural) means normal and usual angels who are serving and ministering mankind ( Heb 1:14)

    2. There is a special Angel ( I believe 2 including Holy Spirit)named Ha- Malack ( The Angel or The Envoy)
    For example, the Angel called Jacob (Gen 31:11) and said I am God at Beth-El (the House of God)
    Claudia pointed out the verses showing Malack in OT.
    This Angel was in charge of Redemption and therefore He was shown up at the time when Abraham tried to offer Isaac as Burnt Offerfing. Jacob confessed the Angel as Redeemer ( Gen 48:16)

    As Kamoroso posted, Ex 23:20-22 shows this Angel very clearly. My Name is in Him ( ex 23:21)

    This is Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ , no doubt.

    3. I believe Archangel Michael is different from this Malack, Gabriel is one of the elohim and therefore different from this Malack.


    4. The Spirit of Christ is mentioned in NT as the one who worked during OT times.


    1 Peter 1:11
    Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
     
  8. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Wow, now the angels are gods what next are you going to come up with?

    Your pet theory falls down since Elohim is consistantly used to describe God unless you are going to claim a creature created the heavens and the earth.

    El according to the BDB Hebrew English Lexicon is the short from for Elohim which means god generally used in the OT to indicate YHWH.
     
  9. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Wow, now the angels are gods what next are you going to come up with?

    Your pet theory falls down since Elohim is consistantly used to describe God unless you are going to claim a creature created the heavens and the earth.

    El according to the BDB Hebrew English Lexicon is the short from for Elohim which means god generally used in the OT to indicate YHWH.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Please don't respond to my post as we better avoid any further crash.

    Do you remember the following exchanges?

    How dare you spout the Garbage from your mouth ?
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True but according to John 16 - the "Spirit of Truth" is in fact this Spirit of Christ - God the Holy Spirit.

    Often when you see him referenced in the NT as being active in the OT the text just says "for the Spirit expressly says"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    James,

    But dont you see? The CAPTAIN OF THE HOSTS is Jesus, yes, but what are the HOSTS that He is captain of? Havent you ever heard the tern "Heavenly Hosts" That refers to all the angels! Jesus is CAPTAIN or leader of all the angels and thus, called Michael the Archangel, but this DOES NOT MEAN Jesus is a literal angel just as the Bible when it alludes to John the Baptist as an "Angel" does not mean John the Baptist is a literl "Angel" it just means a term for "Messenger of God".

    Mt:25:31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

    John 1:
    6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

    Jesus is the number one cheif messenger of God! The Word

    John the Baptist:
    Mal 3:1 Behold* I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.

    * Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:17; and 7:27.

    The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple is clearly Jesus Christ. So Jesus is described in scripture as the *angel or messenger of the covenant*. That covenant likely being the one made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, that a redeemer would come to rescue a fallen humanity, or in addition, as we have previously noted, it was Jesus who appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush, and He also gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on tables of stone, which were placed in the container known as the ark of the covenant.

    Therefore, in Malachi both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are referred to as angels, or messengers, in the broadest sense of the meaning of the word. An angel in scripture can simply be a messenger, without meaning the created heavenly winged-being that most associate with the term. This is the key point to be made, Jesus can be referred to as an angel (messenger) without detracting from His deity in any way at all.
     
  12. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Eliyahu, if you don't want people to respond. Don't post, otherwise be prepared to defend your statements.

    I will admit what I said in response to your rumormongering was in anger, but it doesn't make what I wrote less true.
     
  13. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Whom did God promise would especially guide Israel to the Promised Land?
    "Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared ." Exodus 23:20.

    Who was the Rock that went with them?
    "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ ." 1 Corinthians 10:4.

    It was Christ, by the power of His word, that caused the refreshing stream to flow for Israel. "They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4. He was the source of all temporal as well as spiritual blessings. Christ, the true Rock, was with them in all their wanderings. "They thirsted not when He led them through the deserts: He caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them; He clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out." "They ran in the dry places like a river." Isaiah 48:21; Psalm 105:41.

    [ April 29, 2006, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    One thing I would like for people to grasp is the beauty of this whole thing if understood rightly.

    Jesus has been with His people throughout the history of mankind... all during old testament times He was with them... termed sometimes as "An Angel of the Lord" .


    "God with us" Immanuel. Even before Jesus came in bodily form as a man, He was with His people in old testament times. (see my post above)

    Its too bad that for some it is difficult to get past the "literal angel" aspect of it, which prevents them from seeing this.
     
  15. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    But the word often is used for other beings besides God, including even men (the rulers of Israel--"revile not the gods". It's also of course used for the [false] gods of other nations.
    It is just like our word "god/God", meaning both the true God, as well as false ones, depending on the context. (and we of course have capitalization, as well). YHWH was the name that specifically applied to God and no other. El/Elohim was more like a title, that rightly belonged to Him, but could loosely be applied to others as well.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    But this would be "believed" EVEN if you did not associate God the Son with Michael.

    However your point about "seeing the Angel of the LORD" being in fact "SEEING God the Son" and thus showing how close God was to us - would be a point that this idea brings home.

    The other thing this brings home is the fact that God the Son "as the WORD" conveys infinite God not only the humans but also to Angels. In other words there is an "infinite gap" between all created beings and infinite God.

    ONLY an infinite being like God the Son could bridge that gap and perfectly "explain" or reveal God to finite beings EVEN if they are Angels!

    (Not that this is in an actual "voted" - doctrine of SDAs, but still an interesting topic.)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Often those who object to this subject being discussed - are in fact objecting to the arian views of those like the JW's who claim that Christ was not "God the Son" appearing in the form of an Angel - but was in fact nothing more than a created being.

    And of course no one can blame them for objecting to such an error.

    Another interesting thing about the "right" view of this subject is that in Rev 12 "Michael and HIS angels" is NOT in fact a statement about anyone BUT GOD actually having "angels" loyal to Him in the proper way.

    There is only "Satan and HIS angels" - the rebellion, the evil model, vs God and "HIS angels" the right model where infinite God is the ONE to whom all are devoted, loyal!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In this world as "parents" we can not be the "friend" of our children and "their parent" in all cases. But God becomes the "friend" of his creation through Christ their "elder brother" at the same time we see in God the Father - "the distant" infinite power, the "distant" authorotative throne of the Universe!

    So we have "God near" -- "God with us" and we also have God "far" - almighty, infinite throne of the Universe ruling with omniscient insight.

    In this way He can get down on the rug and play with the kids WHILE also commanding from a distance and with just a word - sparing the child from running in the street and getting hurt.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    I just thought of the time when the disciples were walking along and Jesus, posing as a "regular man" came up to walk beside them and they started talking. It wasnt till later that they realized it was in fact, Jesus.

    ...and so, God does that some times [​IMG]


    Luke 24

    13: And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
    14: And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
    15: And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
    16: But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

    17: And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
    18: And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
    19: And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
    20: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
    21: But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
    22: Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
    23: And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
    24: And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
    25: Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    26: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
    28: And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
    29: But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
    30: And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
    31: And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight
    32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?.
     
  20. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Jesus, walking along posing as a regular man in that last post I did, reminds me of this:


    Judg 13:3 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

    *Angel of God/the Lord* appears in verses 9,13, and 15-18.
    Note what Manoah asks in verse 17 and the answer in verse 18:

    Judg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
    Judg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

    The Hebrew word translated "secret" in the King James (H6383) also can mean "wonderful". Note that this is a title for Jesus:

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    So who had Manoah and his wife been speaking with?

    Judg 13:21 But the *angel of the LORD* did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an *angel of the LORD*.
    Judg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
     
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