Featured Is "unicorns" better than "unicorn" at Deut. 33:17?

Personally, I've never said that it was.

Why people keep including those like me in with others who claim that the AV is a perfect translation ( or re-inspired of God, or a great many things that the KJV-O movement has stated ), I will never know,
as I've readily admitted that I do not believe that it is absolutely perfect.

I've simply stated that I believe it to be superior to the ones that we currently have in English today, based on the language of its day.

 

I've no wish to argue about this, and in this case you very well may be correct.

Also, please keep in mind what I've stated above...
I believe that the AV is superior to the many modern English translations.

To clarify, it's not because of its use of modern English, but its use of the English of its day;
Plus its use of the "Received Text" instead of the later "Critical Text" of Westcott and Hort and apparatuses such as NA and UBS.

I don't recall where I've ever stated that I believe it to be perfect,
and I myself have found places where I believe that it could have been done better...but not by much.

 

Are you saying that if you find what you believe to be a mistake in the translation of the AV, that it automatically renders everything that anyone says about it, as moot?

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept that...
and given the fact that so many of today's translations have what I consider to be an even greater number of errors than the KJV does,
I see no reason to change my own carefully-held and arrived-at convictions regarding the AV.

In addition,
To me, that doesn't even touch on the larger problems of why we have so many English translations,
or,
why so very many professing Christians think that there's nothing wrong about it.

Yes I do, now that you've pointed it out and I've had a chance to carefully review both my post ( in the thread that you referenced ) and the Hebrew here:

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/deu33.pdf
Deuteronomy 33:17 Interlinear:

In other words,
I concede that I am in error on this, and I thank you for pointing it out to me.

That said,
For reasons of wanting to avoid constant argument, I will make this my final reply in this thread and bid you a good day, sir.

 

You are better qualified to answer that question than me.

13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the Lord be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,
14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,
15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,
16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.

17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

I do not understand how anyone can read this and come away not understanding the explanation of the horns of the unicorns. They are Ephraim and Manasseh. The text clearly identifies them. They are two tribes of the twelve tribes of Jacob.

I would love to see this entire blessing, verse 13 -17 in a translation that you approve of. I would like to read what you are reading and try to understand better why you are so determined to call the KJV an error. Please accommodate me on this request.

Following is the NIV rendition of these verses. Has this translation corrected the error in your estimation?

NIV
13 About Joseph he said:

“May the Lord bless his land
with the precious dew from heaven above
and with the deep waters that lie below;
14 with the best the sun brings forth
and the finest the moon can yield;
15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains
and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills;
16 with the best gifts of the earth and its fullness
and the favor of him who dwelt in the burning bush.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince amonge]">[e] his brothers.
17 In majesty he is like a firstborn bull;
his horns are the horns of a wild ox.
With them he will gore the nations,
even those at the ends of the earth.
Such are the ten thousands of Ephraim;
such are the thousands of Manasseh.”

Here is a list of the sons of Jacob in order that God and Moses singles out for blessing in Duet 33.

1) Reuben - V 6
2) Judah - V 7
3) Levi - Levi V 8
4) Benjamin - V 12
5) Joseph - V 13 (#5 the number for grace) - V 17 Ephraim and Manasseh in connection with Joseph, their father.
6) Zebulun - V 18 - Issachar in connection with Zebulon
7) Gad - V 20
8) Dan - V 22
9) Naphtali - V 23
10 Asher - V 24

Of course Levi did not have inheritance in the land and Joseph had a double portion. 13 tribes reduced to 12 or 12 tribe increased to 13.

Here are the places in this blessing that "the people" are mentioned.

De 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints [are] in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; [every one] shall receive of thy words.
De 33:5 And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people [and] the tribes of Israel were gathered together.
De 33:17 His glory [is like] the firstling of his bullock, and his horns [are like] the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they [are] the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they [are] the thousands of Manasseh.
De 33:19 They shall call the people unto the mountain; there they shall offer sacrifices of righteousness: for they shall suck [of] the abundance of the seas, and [of] treasures hid in the sand.
De 33:21 And he provided the first part for himself, because there, [in] a portion of the lawgiver, [was he] seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the LORD, and his judgments with Israel.

Context shows that "the people" references this family of Jacob in every instance of it's use. One can note in the NIV, as an example of error, they have translated "the people" as nations when nations are nowhere involved in this whole chapter. In the scriptures of truth the phrase "the people" almost always is a reference to all Israel or a subset of them. It is so in Duet 33. In the very few places in scripture where it does not the context will make it clear.

There are a lot of errors to be seen but they are not in the KJV. Other translations are chocked full of them.

Here is the NKJV missing the truth.

V 17 His glory is like a firstborn bull,
And his horns like the horns of the wild ox;
Together with them
He shall push the peoples
To the ends of the earth;
They are the ten thousands of Ephraim,
And they are the thousands of Manasseh.”

I have underlined an error in the NKJV. Israel is one people of God, not many. Israel is one family.

 

17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns:[horns of a unicorn] with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

So the best translation would have been [horns of a unicorn], singular?

 

17 In majesty he is like a firstborn bull;
his horns are the horns of a wild ox.
With them he will gore the nations,
even those at the ends of the earth.
Such are the ten thousands of Ephraim;
such are the thousands of Manasseh.

 

The internet has many translation sites available.

I used some, and the Hebrew was translated “In the furnace of the ox, the ox and the horns of the ram, the horns of them, the peoples of the nations shall be gathered together, as the chaff of the earth…”

The Latin Vulgate came back as, “His beauty is like the firstling of a bullock; his horns are like the horns of a unicorn.”

I think it interesting that in the Latin “cornua rinocerotis” came back as horns of a unicorn. My eyes see the word “rhinoceros”.

Perhaps the KJV folks used the Latin rather then Hebrew?

This is why I now rely upon you good folk to validate my words when I do occasionally am obliged to work in the languages on some post on the BB.

I do not ever desire to mistreat God’s Word.

Rather than being consumed over a single word (unicorn(s)) isn’t the message about authority and ability? I would want to be pushed around by any animal and to think of the powerful horn(s) being used to gourd me into compliance isn’t something upon which I too long want to dwell.

 

Please, would you quote the passage from a translation that you think best presents the way you are teaching this passage? It would help me to see your point if I saw it all in context. Thanks.

 

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Gentlemen.

Here is a quote from God and Isaiah that is relevant to the subject at hand, I think. It is in the context of the words of God and how we are to process it.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Now, I have learned over the years that one must learn to think like God thinks. Here he says he does not think like us. He tells us how he thinks. He thinks a plural can be a singular and a singular can be a plural I will give you two examples although there are plenty to choose from.

1) Consider this:
Ephesians 5:31
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

2) Ephesians 2:13-14
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

They are one without losing the physical identity as Jew and gentile; male and female and are able to function as a separate entity. The trinity is another example of this.

Logo1560 has an MO of failing to approach the scriptures as a spiritual work but with the tools of the worldly wise. In this passage he is demonstrating that he does not know the ways of God and is trying to apply worldly principles to figure God out.

The best advice I can give anyone is to believe the words. One cannot go wrong by believing the words whether you can understand them at the moment or whether you cannot. The singular noun can represent a plural in God's way of thinking and doing.

 

You cannot acknowledge a possible mistake or not the best word choice in the KJV?

 

I know the voice of the devil when I hear it. All he wants a Christian to do is to agree with him that the word of God is not perfect.That means God is not perfect and he must settle for an imperfect testimony to give to us. It is the best an imperfect god can do.

These guys say the perfect word of God is in the manuscripts. They don't believe that. There are 4 families of manuscripts and they are not settled on which of them are true.

I have a statement of God that his word is perfect.

Psa 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

These 6 divisions of the Law of the LORD are given to us and I have never had one of these fellows present a modification of the above description from God and David concerning his word. He wrote the longest Psalm in scripture with 176 verses giving us God's assessment of these 6 divisions of his law and nowhere does he say there are errors in it to praise and be thankful for.

Psa 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in 1) the law of the Lord.

2 Blessed are they that keep 2) his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

4 Thou hast commanded us to keep 3) thy precepts diligently.

5 O that my ways were directed to keep 4) thy statutes!

6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all 5) thy commandments.

7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned 6) thy righteous judgments.


This goes on for 176 verses.

The apostasy is great. Who would have believed that Christians were on forums like this insisting that the test of spirituality for the modern believer is to acknowledge that God cannot preserve his own words and that he has no interest in doing it..

9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

Now it is your turn. Convince me from the scriptures and not from logos1560 that there are errors in God's word and it cannot be accepted as perfect.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against

104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

 

My request is that you quote a translation that you would would advise as an alternative to the KJV because it is more accurate. Why do you ignore that request?

 

I accused the devil of doing it. This lesson is about antecedents and you are proving in this post that you have missed mine. But you do not believe God is able to preserve his words in translation and therefore the best we have available to us are bibles with errors. I do not get that as being the way of God when I read Psalm 19 and Psalm 119 and other places he comments on his own words. We are going to be judged by his words.

The eight men who wrote the NT scriptures have been dead for 2000 years yet we are all asked to believe their own eye witness accounts of the life and times of Jesus Christ and what he taught them about this age. Everyone from then until now must learn from what these men wrote. That requires that we all have what these men said. Hebrew and Greek is not the universal language of any believers today.