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Featured Islam - a counterfeit anti-christ, a weapon of fear/terror for the mind of the last days

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by One Baptism, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    Islam - a counterfeit anti-christ, a weapon of fear/terror for the mind of the last days

    This thread is for all things Islam, in regards their own authentic source materials, and how we may be educated in regards what they believe, and in how to effectively witness to them, that they may be won to Christ Jesus [not 'Isa, a theological argument, not an actual person] and be saved, and delivered from darkness, and ignorance.

    A brief history of Islam:

    AD 570
    - Muhammad born [supposedly, ancestry really unknown, no one knows the father of Abu al 'Qasim' for sure]

    AD 610 - Muhammad [40 years old] met 'Jibril' in the Hira cave

    AD 610 - 622 - Received 'Meccan' verses

    AD 621 - Muhammad has the 'Mi'raj' to the 7 Heavens [5 Prayers/As-Salat]

    AD 622 - 'Hijra' [Migration] from Mecca to Medina

    AD 622 - 632 - Received 'Medinan' verses

    AD 624 - There were no mosques prior to AD 624, Qibla [direction of prayer changed, from Jerusalem to Mecca [Al-Masjid-Al-Haram]], specifically to the Ka'bah [building and the blackstone [god] thereof], Qur'an surah 2 [Al-Baqarah], ayah 142-150

    Qur'an - Al-Hilali-Khan; Surah Al Baqara 2:142-150 -

    "… [v. 142] The fools among the people (pagans, hypocrites, and Jews) will say, "What has turned them (Muslims) from the Qiblah [prayer direction (towards Jerusalem)] to which they used to face in prayer." Say, (O Muhammad) "To Allah belong both, east and the west. He guides whom He wills to the Straight Way." [v. 143] Thus We have made you [true Muslims – real believers of Islamic Monotheism, true followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah (legal ways)], a just (and the best) nation, that you be witnesses over mankind [1] and the Messenger (Muhammad) be a witness over you. And We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger (Muhammad) from those who would turn on their heels (i.e. disobey the Messenger). indeed it was great (heavy) except for those whom Allah guided. And Allah would never make your faith (prayers) to be lost (i.e. your prayers offered towards Jerusalem). Truly, Allah is full of Kindness, the Most Merciful towards mankind. [v. 144] Verily! We have see the turning of your (Muhammad's) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-Al-Haram (at Makkah [Mecca]). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction. Certainly, the people who were given the Scripture (i.e. Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka'bah at Makkah [Mecca] in prayers) is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do. [v. 145] And even if you were to bring to the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) all of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they would not follow your Qiblah (prayer direction), nor are you going to follow their Qiblah (prayer direction). And they will not follow each other's Qiblah (prayer direction). Verily, if you follow their desires after that which you have received of knowledge (from Allah), then indeed you will be one of the Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers). [v.146] Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad or the Ka'bah at Makkah [Mecca]) as they recognise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it – [i.e. the qualities pf Muhammad which are written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] [v.147] (This is) the truth from your Lord. So be you not one of those who doubt. [v.148] For every nation there is a direction to which they face (in their prayers). So hasten towards all that is good. Wheresoever you may be, Allah will bring you together (on the Day of Resurrection). Truly, Allah is Able to do all things. [v.149] And from wheresoever you start forth (for prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-Al-Haram (at Makkah [Mecca]), that is indeed the truth from your Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what you do. [v.150] And from wheresoever you start forth (your prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-Al-Haram (at Makkah [Mecca]), and wheresoever you are, turn your faces towards it (when you pray) so that men may have no argument against you except those of them that are wrong-doers, so fear them not, but fear Me! – And so that I may complete My Blessings on you and that you may be guided. ..."​

    AD 630 - Conquered Mecca 'peacefully', in the area of the Hijaz [Roman controlled province]

    AD 632 - Died horribly of accumulated effects of poisoning [from the battle of Kaybar], there was as yet no official written or totally compiled [into one source] qur'an.

    AD 632 - 634 - Abu Bakr [Father of Aishah, favorite wife of Muhammad], Rightly Guided Caliph of Muhammad, takes over

    AD 634 - 644 - Umar [daughter Hafsa], starts conquering other cities - Bozrah, Baghdad, Damascus, Jerusalem, Cairo

    AD 642 - The 5 Great cities of the Levant - Basra, Baghdad, Damascus, Jerusalem, Cairo, are now under Arab [not Muslim] control. Also Alexandria, Aden, Merat and Nishapur.

    AD 644 - 656 - Uthman, he has the various qur'anic materials [like Hafsa's, daughter of Umar] compiled into one official [Zaid ibn Thabit, secretary of Muhammad, re-write and correct, and if any difficulty, use the Qur'aishi language, language of Muhammad's Ummah people, along with three other men], and burns all of the rest which differed, or were lost, had additions, etc.

    4 main Uthman copies were made,

    [1] Medina,

    [2] Basra,

    [3] Baghdad,

    [4] Damascus,​

    of which two are supposed to be still around, the Topkapi Mushaf [in Turkey, Istanbul, mid - 8th century] and the Sammarqand Mushaf [Tashkent early - mid 8th century], but they are not that old, but later [Umayyad period, 8th century], and contain errors, and are only half manuscripts. However,

    [1] Ibn Mas'ud had only a 111 chapters in his Qur'an.

    [2] Ubayy bin Kab had 116 chapters in his Qur'an.

    [3] Zaid ibn Thabit, the current [official] Qur'an, has only 114 chapters.

    Others are the:

    [1] Ma'il [Britain, Hijazi text],

    [2] Petropolitanus [Paris, see Francois Deroche 2009:172-177],

    [3] Houseini [al-Mashhad al-Husayni] Cairo, Egypt, see Tayyar Altikulac Al Mushaf Al Sharif 2007:36, footnote 14a],

    [4] San'aa manuscripts, see the book Al Mushaf Al Sharif, Prof. Dr. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, and Dr. Tayyar Altikulac.
    There are actually over 31 different Arabic [differing words, word order, verbs, etc] Qur'ans [I did not say 31 Translations of the Uthmanic [which is only a single source, just differing [sugar-coated, cleaned up] translations of it]]:

    A Witness To Islam/Muslim/Mahometans

    also check out, Usama Dakdok's - Exposing the Truth about the Qur'an books, Volumes 1 and 2, easy to read, mostly accurate - Books/DVDs « The Straight Way

    ... to be continued ...
    #1 One Baptism, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  2. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    ... continued ...

    For original source data-mining only [becareful what you read, how often you read, how long you read, etc it is deadly poison, no joke, full hazmats on]:

    The Uthmanic Qur'an, English translations - IslamAwakened

    The Sunnah of Islam [aHadith, etc] - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

    Various Tafsirs - English Tafseer Of The Noble Quran

    Ibn Ishaq's sira'tul rasulallah, the biographical life of Muhammad - https://ia801702.us.archive.org/25/...dGuillaume/The_Life_Of_Mohammed_Guillaume.pdf

    Reliance of the Traveller, Official Sharia Code Book [Islamic Law] [the owner is removing these from the net, get them while you can] - Wayback Machine

    The book of Jihad - https://ia800904.us.archive.org/30/...IbnNuhass/The Book of Jihad by Ibn Nuhass.pdf

    An Index to the Qur'an, by Harun Yahya - https://ia802305.us.archive.org/23/items/AnIndexToTheQuran/kuran_fihristi_en.pdf

    Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon - https://lanelexicondotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/lane-an-arabic-english-lexicon.pdf

    The classical 'apologetical' of Al Kindi, a Christian response to Muslim - https://www3.nd.edu/~reynolds/nehc20624/al-kindi.pdf

    23 Years by Ali Dashti - http://1400years.org/books/twentythreeyearsEN.pdf

    AD 650 - Official Uthmanic recension of the various qur'ans compiled into one, all others destroyed

    AD 656 - 661 - Ali [Adopted son of Muhammad], whom the Shia adhere to as the rightful heir

    AD 661 - North Africa controlled by the Arabs, and goes into Spain, then to the east, in India

    AD 685 - 705 - Abd al'Malik, comes to power

    AD 685 - coins with Muhammad's name on them, no other record of this name before this date, that is known

    AD 691
    - dome of the rock,:

    [1] first Arab inscription referencing 'Muhammad' [Volker Popp-Ohlig & Puin, 2010:53];

    [2] the first reference to 'Muslims' is in the 690's [Chronicle of John of Niku' – 1602],

    [3] the first Arab reference to 'Muslim' if just prior to AD 749 [Nevo & Koren, 2003:234], otherwise they re simply 'Saracen' [Arab], 'Hagarene', 'Ishmaelite', 'Maghraye', 'Muhajiroun' [in exodus, nomad];

    [4] the first reference to 'Islam' is not until AD 691 [Dome of the Rock] [Volker Popp-Ohlig & Puin, 2010:71],

    [5] the first reference to 'Mecca' is not until AD 741 [Patricia Crone 1987:134-136 [found in Apocalypse of pseudo-Methodius Continuatio Byzantia Arabica, early reign of caliph Hisham]; Hoyland 1997:426; Tom Holland, In the Shadow of the Sword, 2012:303],

    [6] the first Biography of 'Muhammad' within Islamic sources is not until AD 833 [Ibn Isham, citing the earlier non-extant work of Ibn Ishaq, AD 765],

    [7] the earliest maps do not show or place 'Mecca' until AD 900, of which Patricia Crone, found Greek trading documents with Ta'if [South-East of Mecca], Yathrib [later Medina], Kaybar, but never Mecca.​

    Historical Criticism [I do not necessarily agree with this position, just citing it]:

    Wansbrough, Hawting, Patricia Crone, Andrew Rippin, Robert Hoyland, Yehuda Nevo, Luling, Gerd R Puin, Von Bothmer, Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Francois Deroche, Bowering, Conrad, Peters, Stein, Showmaker, [even Islamic Awareness, Islam site], Dan Brubaker, see the book Al Mushaf Al Sharif, Prof. Dr. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, and Dr. Tayyar Altikulac.


    "... Islam, and the prophet's life, as we know it, was not derived from the 7th century, but evolved over a period of 200-300 years, and then redacted back on to the prophet's life, and compiled in the 9th century ..." [Humphreys 1991:71,83-89]

    "... The Qur'an probably was not revealed to one man in 22 years, but likely evolved over a period of 50-100 years ..." [Rippin 1985:155, 1990:3,25,60; Lester 99:44-45; Wansbrough 1977:160-163]

    The conclusion of a few is that the history of Islam, at least from the time of the Caliph Abd al-Malik (AD 685-705) and before, is a later fabrication/redaction [Cook 1983:65; Robinson 1996:47]

    AD 705 - Jacob of Edessa

    AD 765 - Ibn Ishaq, writes the first known 'siratul Rasu'allah' [life [history] of the 'prophet' of allah [Muhammad]]

    AD 790 - Ma'il qur'an

    AD 833 - Ibn Isham, rewrites Ibn Ishaq's account, altering it

    AD 870 - al-Bukhari, compiles the first Sahih aHadith [sayings of Muhammad, using a chain of narration system], from 600,000 sayings, narrowed to 7,397 sayings in 9 Volumes, throwing out 98%.

    AD 923 - al-Tabari, compiles the first great Tafsir [commentary on the qur'an]

    Current major Arabic top English Quranic Translations, based upon the Uthmanic recension:

    [1] Al-Hilali-Khan [official Saudi, Salafi], - IslamAwakened or [like eSword, qDagger] Zekr: Download Qur'an for Mac, PC, Linux

    [2] Yusuf-Ali,

    [3] Shakir,

    [4] Pickthal,

    [5] Dawood,

    [6] Sarwar, etc ...​

    There are actually 31 differing qur'ans, various lengths, changes in words, meanings, tenses, etc., see above

    aHadith's [sayings, chains of narration, of Muhammad] [Sahih [correct/accepted as valid]]:

    Tafsir's [commentaries] [Ta'rikh, histories]:

  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    A question for Muslims, a study of what they have written in their own sources:

    I understand that the Qur'an speaks of "Isa", as "the Messiah" [Qur'anic, "Masih", to the Jews, not to Muslims]:

    [Note to the reader/s: Qur'anic references are given by the [Uthamanic, Zaid ibn Thabit] English Translation Author, followed by the Title/Name of the Surah, followed by the Surah number, followed with colon [:], followed by the ayah [singular, ayat, [plural]], as thus [Yusuf Ali translation, Al 'Imran 3:45] [if the translation author is left out, any translation author will generally do, but there is a few differences in ayat numbering in the Uthamnic English between various tranlsations, therefore always double check the translation cited if refering and speaking with Muslims, be accurate, etc]

    [a 'surah' is like what we would call a 'chapter' but is not really, as there is no real order to any given qur'an [since it is mixed into Mecci and Medini Surah, etc, and generally goes from the largest Surah [2] to the smallest [114, Uthmanic], so it is not quite accurate to say 'chapter', and the 'ayah' [or ayat] is like unto 'verse/s', but really means 'signs, miracles, etc', and some ayah that are next to another may have no contextual connection at all to the before or after ayah/ayat]​

    Yusuf-Ali translation
    Al 'Imran 3:45
    Al Nisa' 4:157,171,172
    Al Ma'idah 5:19,75,78
    Al Tawbah or Bara'ah 9:30,31​

    From what I understand and have read of Islamic sources [Qur'an, aHadith [primarily Sahih], Tafsir and Tarikh, etc], the Qur'an [etal.] teaches that Adam sinned ultimately because of satan, and thus lost his garments of light in the Garden, and became naked [and attempted to hide behind the "leaves of Paradise" [Ta-Ha 20:121], and God had to clothe him [them, Adam/Eve], with the skins of the slain animals/sacrifical lamb as per:

    al-Hilali-Khan translation
    Al A'raf 7:26,27
    Ta-Ha 20:118-121​

    This is what was given before in the Genesis 3:1-24 KJB, and in Genesis 3:15 KJB, God promised a "seed" to the woman, and would come of the woman [not of the man]. Eve, understood this promise of God, to send the "seed", as she thinks [*] her first child is that "seed", see Genesis 4:1 KJB, "gotten a man of the LORD".

    [* mistakenly, but hopefully, as every daughter of Eve since then had awaited, see Sarah [Hebrews 11:11] and God's continued promise to Abraham in regards the "seed"; Genesis 9:9, 12:7, 13:15,16, 17:7,8,9,10, 21:12, 22:17,18; Exodus 32:13, 33:1; Joshua 24:3; 2 Samuel 7:12, 22:51; 2 Chronicle 20:7; Psalms 89:3,4,29,36, 105:6; Isaiah 41:8, 45:25, 65:9, 66:22; John 7:42; Acts 3:25, 7:5,6, 13:23; Romans 1:3, 4:13,16,18, 9:7; Galatians 3:16,19,29; 2 Timothy 2:8; Hebrews 2:16, 11:18; Revelation 12:7, etc. KJB]
    Thus it was God who instituted the "sacrifice" from "the foundation of the world" [Hebrews 9:26; Revelation 13:8, 17:8 KJB] and "the shedding of blood" [Hebrews 9:22 KJB] for sin/transgression of His Law. This "sacrifice" was continued through time, until Christ.

    Al Ma-idah 5:27-33 [Cain and Abel continue the sacrifice]
    As Saffat 37:75-83, 101-107 [Noah and Abraham continue the sacrifice]
    Al Baqarah 2:67-73 [Moses continues the sacrifice, see also the clean and unclean in Al An'am 6:146]
    Al 'Imran 3:183 [Elijah continues this on Mt. Carmel, also see notation in Yusuf-Ali *489]​

    Additional references, though in a different manner than the Bible [KJB]:

    Al Ma'idah 5:2,3,95
    Maryam 19:54 [see also Yusuf-Ali notation *2506]
    As Saffat 37:101-107
    Al Hajj 22:28,32-34,26,37
    Al Fath 48:25
    Al Kauthar 108:2​

    Now coming more to the Question itself, which concerns something which Jesus, being the Prophet, said:

    Matthew 24:15 KJB - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

    Mark 13:14 KJB - But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

    Luke 21:20 KJB - And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.​

    Jesus, thus referenced the prophet Daniel, in Daniel chapter 9, where it was written:

    Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

    The Question is [to the Muslims], since Jesus quoted Daniel, and Daniel states that, "... he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease ...", being tied to the work of the "Messiah", and the "sacrifices" go all the way back unto God and Adam/Eve in Genesis because of the sin of the first man, what would/did the "Messiah" do, according to prophecy from the days of Adam unto Christ's [Messiah] Jesus's day, that "cause[d]" the "sacrifice and oblation to cease"?

    In other words, what does the official authenitc Islamic sources teach in regards this prophecy of Daniel, that Jesus mentioned, referring to the "sacrifices" coming to an end at a very specific time, that were offered since the days of Adam's transgression?

    A secondary question to any Muslim, would be, who has studied the prophecies of Daniel from Daniel 1-12 KJB, since Jesus explicitly stated that we are to read Daniel's prophecies and understand them?
    #3 One Baptism, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  4. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    To perhaps head off some questions:

    No, I do not believe [based upon my own studied research from the original authentic Islamic sources] "Isa" of any qur'an is Jesus, but is a mere incorrect theological argument, a false representation of the real historic Jesus Christ.

    No, I do not believe that any of the rasul/prophets of Islam, in any qur'an, whether they appear to have similar names as found in the Bible [KJB], are actually the same persons of real Bible history, but are counterfeit fraudulent stories, and thefts with deletions and additions of those real Bible historical events.

    No, I do not believe "Allah" is JEHOVAH at all, for numerous reaons, mostly scriptural [KJB], some historical, some linguistical, etc. "Allah" is a singular word/Title/Name, and never a plural word, and can therefore, never represent in any way Elohiym [plural, Hebrew true plural 3 or more], Father, Son and Holy Spirit/Ghost of the Holy scripture. What "Allah" means and comes from, we can look at later, there are several theories on it, some of which are interesting, including the reversed and upside down YHVH [Hebrew: יהוה ], and the one linked to the pagan Arabic god Hilal, and Heylel of Isaiah 14:12 HOT. Al-ilah, actually means 'god' in Arabic. The "Allah" of the qur'an is satan, and has the character thereof.

    No, any qur'an is not a holy book, and in Arabic never means holy book. Al qur'an al kareem, doesn't mean Holy [qur'an] Recitation, it means "generous reciting" [ie much vain repetitions]

    No, Muhammad [meaning: the praised one], aka Abu Al Qasim, Ahmed, Mustafa, etc, is not a true prophet in any sense of the word, but is indeed a false desert prophet of which we were warned about, in Matthew 24:24-26 KJB.

    No, I do not believe that Islam, Muhammad, Muslims, Ottoman Empire, Turks are in anyway a major part of Daniel 8-12, neither of Revelation 9, based upon actual study of the scripture [KJB] and the SoP/ToJ [Spirit of Prophecy/Testimony of Jesus] in a careful, prayerful manner. Will Islam play a part in final events, sure, but in a antitype to that which took place in the days of Luther, Charles V and the Turks, in the days of the reformation. A scare-weapon, in the hands of Romanism and the State, to cause the binding of eccumenism. More on this latter from Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 KJB, etc.

    No, I do not beleive anyone has to actually read any qur'an to witness to Muslims, or their sources, but I do believe it helps when speaking to confused Christians or other people in general to have a working knowledge of their system of belief in all its bizarre and murderous satanic religion.

    There is no such thing as a 'moderate or extremist Islam', or 'moderate or extremist Muslims'. There is only the actual qur'anic text, aHadiths, Tafsirs, and the practicing Islamic muslims [Jihadis, the various Sharia [Islamic Law] courts of juris prudence are clear], or taqqiyah [concealing] practicers, or the hypocrites, according to their own authenitc sources, more on this later with documentation. The very religion of Islam is deadly dangerous. Whether the person/s who claim to follow it actually do it or not, is another story, but it teaches what it teaches whether they follow it or not in actuality.

    Any qur'an and aHadith, etc is to be used against the Muslim, in all their inconsistencies. Point the Muslim rather to the complete, inspired, preserved and unbreakable scripture [KJB].

    No, the 'angel' Jibr'il of the qur'an, aHadith, etc is not the real angel Gabriel as found in the scripture [KJB], but is satan masquerading.

    Muslims may say that they believe the scriptures, or the 'book/s' and the 'people' thereof [Jews and Christians [and even Sabeans]], but in actual practice, they do not. They have a mere mental assent to their own idea as to what the Taurat [supposed to be the Torah, it isn't] and Injeel [supposed to he the Gospel, it isn't] and Zabur [supposed to be the psalms of David, it isnt] are supposed to be. They claim that the scriptures we have are all corrupted except for what they imagine agrees with them, and it varies from person to person.

    Muslims may say that they believe the prophets of the OT and NT, but they in actual practice do not, but deny them, only beleiving in the imaginary ones as recorded in their qur'ans.

    Muslims believe that all persons from Adam began as Muslims, but have gone astray, so they do not preach repent, but revert. They teach that Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Prophets, Jesus and early apostles were all 'good' Muslims.​
    #4 One Baptism, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  5. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    Daniel the prophet, in receiving a Messianic prophecy in Daniel 9 KJB, and the other texts mentioned, Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, etc] reveal the cessation of the "sacrifice and oblation" [which were from the days of Adam, because of his sin] by the "Messiah", even in connection with "Jerusalem" [not Mecca].

    The theology of Islam claims [outwardly] that it 'accepts' Daniel as a prophet, but when it comes to the specifics of what was actually prophesied, even given to him by JEHOVAH [YHVH], through the lesser-arch angel Gabriel, etc, in regards the exact timing that the "Messiah" was to appear,

    [AD 27, the Messiah was to be baptized, 3 1/2 years later He was to be "cut off", but "not for himself", in AD 31, and the Apostles were to "confirm" [Hebrews 2:3 KJB] this for another 3 1/2 years, ending with the rejection of Stephen by the Sanhedrin in AD 34 [Acts 7 KJB]​

    thus ending the final week of the 70 Weeks portion of the 2,300 year prophecy of Daniel 8:13,14,26 KJB], suddenly those words are rejected, even though in a Qur'an,

    Yusuf Ali translation, Al Ma'idah 5:47,68; Al' Ankabut 29:47 it and Yunus 10:94

    [in regards destruction for apostasy from the truth, even in rejecting the Messiah, as Daniel 9 reveals, for "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city", were the Jews which rejected the Messiah, and thus God withdrew His protection from Jerusalem, and allowed the Romans, under Titus to destroy it, even within the very "generation" [within 40 years], as Jesus had prophesied [Matthew 23:36; Luke 11:50, 17:25; Acts 2:40 KJB]] ​

    it claims that the people of the 'Injil' are to judge by what has been revealed therein,

    [which would include the words of Jesus, Messiah and Prophet, in Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21 KJB,

    [since it may be shown by documentational [manuscripts, papyrii, codices, etc] evidence that the very scriptures we have to day [as preserved by God Himself, Psalms 12:6-7, 105:8, 119:89; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:23,25 KJB, etc]​

    are what was in the days of the 6-7th century, in Syria, Turkey, Armenia, Egypt [Coptic, Bohairic, Sahidic, etc], Greece, etc.] etc in His direct command to believers to read and understand what was given in Daniel, especially since Daniel 9 was referred to]​

    and even according to Al 'Ankabut 29:46, Abu al Qasim, stated that he "believe[d]" "in that which has been revealed ... to [Jews and Christians, ie, the Taurat, the prophets, the 'Injil', even the Psalms [what Islam calls the 'Zabur']] ...", which was supposed to be "confirmed" [Al 'Imran 3:3-4], not denied, and since they are [present tense] the words of JEHOVAH, who could actually change His words [as even Islam's own Qur'anic material suggests for its 'Allah', see Al Kahf 18:27]?​

    Adam himself, according to Al Baqara 2:37 which claims that after Adam sinned, he received from 'his Lord', "words of inspiration", which we see given in Genesis 3:15 KJB, concering the "sacrifice", the clothing therewith, and the "seed" who would come and be "bruised" [crushed], so that the Devil/Satan would be utterly "bruised" [crushed completely and forever, see Romans 16:20, having began at Gethsemane and Calvary, to be finished shortly].

    Thus a "lamb" was slain from the foundation, beginning the "sacrifice", which were carried on by the faithful of God, Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob [Israel], etc., etc. unto, as Daniel prophesied, "Messiah the prince", who would, in the midst of the final week of the 70 weeks, "cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease", even at Jersualem, as pointed to by John the Baptist that Jesus was the actual "Lamb of God" [John 1:29,36 KJB], which was played out in every single "daily" sacrifice of the Sanctuary [Psalms 77:13 KJB], and at the "Passover" [Abib 10th unto 14th, 3 1/2 days, as Jesus ministered 3 1/2 years, day for a year, see Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6 KJB, etc] and though rejected by many, bringing destruction upon Jerusalem some 40ish years later, some would believe and be delivered from it.

    Not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem, for they received the words of Jesus, and fled when they saw the sign of Jerusalem encompassed with armies, and when Cestius returned from the first seige for an unknown reason back towards Rome, all Christians fled the city, and none perished when Titus came back and levelled it to the ground.

    So when Muslims say that it "is not taught in Islamic sources" means to reject, or at the least to re-interpret, the Qur'anic sources just cited in regards the OT/NT materials, and that which is written therein, otherwise, how could it be said that anyone were to judge by what is written therein, or to consider what the Christians had in the 6-7th centuries, as per Al 'Araf 7:157, "written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel", and so on? [rhetorical] aHadith could be cited which reveal the same thing.

    Neither Daniel 9 [which is simply a piece of Daniel 8:13,14,26 - 2,300 day/year prophecy [beginning 457 BC, Ezra 7 KJB], being "determined" [sectioned, cut from]], and the statements of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, say nothing in regards Mecca, the Hajj [remnants of tribal Arabic 'Jahiliyyah' [days of ignorance in idol worship, etc]], nor is concerning itself with any 'sacrifices' therein. The mention of Mecca, and or aHadith associated with it, etc is again non-sequitur to the Question, which deals with what the prophet Daniel, referred to by Jesus, stated in regards "Jerusalem", and the "Messiah" thereof.

    I understand the general view [though there are a great deal of eschatological views in Islamic thought, primarily Isa is to return and destroy the pigs [Jews, on whom is wrath] and Cross [Christians, who went astray], even as Yusuf-Ali Surah Al Fatiha 1:7 exclaims] about the 2nd Advent of the Islamic 'Isa', which are contradictory to the prophecies of the OT/NT [but that is for another time and place]. Jesus will not only have a 2nd Advent, but a 3rd Advent [see Revelation 20; Isaiah 24; Zechariah 14, etc].

    Here is the issue, if any Muslim [or Islam on the whole] reject what Jesus said in Matthew 24, Mark 13; Luke 21 KJB, in referring to Daniel the prophets and the prophecies therein, and also reject Daniel 9, in regards the "Messiah", and what He was to specifically do, then it follows that they reject the time prophecies which pinpoint to the very year that the "Messiah" was to accomplish His mission on earth.

    Thus they must also reject John the Baptists statements [which were given him by God to say about the Messiah, thus rejecting the baptism as the pharisees rejected the counsel of God against themselves [Luke 7:30 KJB]] and eye-witness testimony, given in all 4 Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, about what Isaiah and Malachi the prophets foretold.

    Thus there is no way in so doing that a Muslim can accept Jesus as the Messiah or prophet for any reason, since there was no specific time in which the "Ancient of Days" gave for the Messiah to do His work, and there is no way to determine what He was to do since John the Baptists, Isaiah's, Malachi's, etc prophecies are rejected, as well as that which was written about Jesus in the Psalms 40:6-8 KJB, etc, and even the very purpose of the "sacrifice", from the beginning, given unto Adam, with "words of inspiration" about it, and given again to Moses in the Sanctuary services,

    [which were merely patterns of the True Sanctuary in Heaven [Psalms 11:4, 18:6; Isaiah 6:1; Jonah 2:7; Micah 1:2; Habakkuk 2:10 KJB [the Ark on earth simply His "footstool" [small throne on earth]]​

    wherein is God's True Ark, wherein is God's Eternal Holy, Good and Just Law of Ten Commandments,

    [Exodus 20:1-17; see John 14:15; Exodus 20:6 KJB, the foundation of His righteous Kingdom, a transcript of His eternal character], ​

    see Exodus 25:9,40; Numbers 8:4;Hebrews 8:5 KJB, and also to David and Solomon were given again the very enlarged pattern of the Sanctuary [1 Chronicles 28:11,12,18,19 KJB], which is seen in Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 11:1,19, 15:8, 16:1, 21:22, KJB etc.
  6. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    [For all involved, especially Muslims,

    Please read what I am about to ask very, very carefully, and before any answer, think about it for some time before replying, for your answer will determine my next question to any who answer.]

    [Part 01] Does Islam, in its official authentic source materials, accept or reject the specific words, in whole or in part [if in part, explain which], of Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-2:4 KJB [in its English], and moreso in the Hebrew it was originally [in both pictograph and modern script] given in?

    [Part 02] a secondary, or sub question, - is the Hebrew [in both ancient pictograph, and more modern script], in all its words therein, of Genesis 1:1 and 2:4 accepted or rejected, in either whole or in part [if in part, explain which]?

    Genesis 1:1 reads in Hebrew - בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃

    Genesis 2:4 reads in Hebrew - אלה תולדות השׁמים והארץ בהבראם ביום עשׂות יהוה אלהים ארץ ושׁמים׃

    This question is not asking about the ideology of the 6 days of Elohim ["God", Genesis 1:1 KJB, not a Hebrew dual plural, but a true plural, 3 or greater] creating, and resting ["rested" and "refreshed"; Exodus 31:17 KJB] thereof in the 7th Day [not a matter of tiredness, Isaiah 40:28 KJB, but of cessation of speaking, and enjoying satisfied with the work done, see Genesis 1:1,2,3,6,9,11,14,20,24,26,29; Psalms 33:6,9; Job 38:4-7 KJB], the Sabbath of the LORD [JEHOVAH, YHVH; Exodus 20:8-11, 31:17; Genesis 2:1-3 KJB].

    None of that is what is being asked about. This question is only asking about the validity of the specific words, and whether not Islam accepts or rejects the specific words, as cited. Again, the question is not concerning itself with the ideology that the words convey [yet], but rather, with the actual words written. Does Islam accept/reject the actual written words themselves, as cited, yes/no?

    Perhaps I may try to help in what I am asking here a bit further.

    Moses [an Hebrew [Exodus 2:11 KJB], of the tribe of Levi, not Judah; Exodus 2:1; 1 Chronicles 23:14 KJB] wrote the very words of Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-4 [etc.], and more specificially that of Genesis 1:1, and 2:4, yes/no?

    Moses, inspired of God [2 Peter 1:21 KJB], wrote the name of God, in Genesis 2:4, as "יהוה" [trans. lit. YHVH], and in Genesis 1:1, the words used were "אלהים את ... ואת", yes/no?

    Therefore, the question is concerned with the specific words, in either ancient Hebrew pictograph and/or modern Hebrew script. For instance, both the Mesha Stele [for the YHVH] - link, and the Gezer Calendar [for some ancient script] - link, and so, consider the ancient paleo Hebrew script here - link

    Thus, I am interested in the specific words themselves.

    For instance, the name, given to Moses, "יהוה" [trans. lit. YHVH], given some 6528 times in the OT, in paleo Hebrew is:



    which can mean, "Behold", "the hand", Behold", "the nail [print]", see John 20:27 KJB:

    It can also mean a covenant between two, by sacrifice/piercing.

    Even more than this, the words in Genesis 1:1, Hebrew - בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃, reveal two untranslated words, the Aleph, Tau, and the Vau, Aleph, Tau, which is the nail piercing the sacrifice to the cross, in Paleo Hebrew, the very "sign" suspended between the words "Heaven" and "Earth":

    See for yourself -
    Alpha [sacrifice], Tau [Cross], Vau [pierced by the Nail] between Heaven and Earth




    Yeshua and the Hebrew Alphabet

    It is WRIT LARGE for all the universe to see and understand, for those who love the Truth. Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify about me." [John 5:39 KJB] [This statement by Jesus, is easily tested, and shown to be absolutely true, from beginning to end, my next questions will concern these things.]

    So, then, are the words as they are written in those places cited, accepted or rejected by Islam?
    #6 One Baptism, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  7. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    [Part 01] Does Islam, accept/reject the written names from Adam to Seth, in their genealogical descendancy, along with their meanings? Here is the list, from Adam to Seth, as given in scripture [KJB] [as found given in Genesis 3 - 5; 1 Chronicles 1:1-4; Luke 3:33-38 KJB]:

    Adam -- Eve -- [Abel -- Cain] -- Seth -- Enos -- Cainan -- Mahalaleel -- Jared -- Enoch -- Methuselah -- Lamech -- Noah -- Shem.

    From my present sources, Islam, seems to accept the order given in Genesis, along with an 'Arabicized' spelling [though without the mention of "Eve" [simply given as 'Hawa/Hawwa' [meaning to help/support [as Genesis 2:20 KJB, "help meet for him"]; Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Abridged 10 Volumes, PDF, pages 777, 1315, 1900], "Cain" [Qabil], and/or "Abel" [Habil] [both mentioned in Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Abridged 10 Volumes, PDF, pages 1311-1320]:

    According to Ibn Ishaq's siratul Rasu'allah [the first classical work of the biographical life of Muhammad] [circa AD 765], page 3 [sectioned], we read of the Islamic genealogical line [seen in reverse from above, here]:

    "... [page 3] ... Sam, b. Nuh, b. Lamk, b. Mattushalakh, b. Akhnukh, ... b. Yard, b. Mahlil, b. Qaynan, b. Yanish, b. Shith, b. Adam (10).* ..."​

    This is re-cited by Ibn Kathir, in his Abridged 10 Volume, Tafsir, PDF, page 1763-1764:

    "... to the people of the earth after Adam. His name was Nuh bin Lamak bin Matushalakh bin Khanukh. ... he was the son of Barad bin Mahil, bin Qanin bin Yanish bin Shith bin Adam, ..."; "... This lineage is mentioned by Muhammad bin Ishaq and other Imams who document lineage. ..."​

    [Part 02]
    Does Islam, accept/reject the written names of the Family of Jacob [whose name was changed to "Israel" [Genesis 32:28; 35:10 KJB] by JEHOVAH [YHVH]], along with their meanings? [There are at least 3 listings in Scripture KJB, Genesis 29-30 & 35 & 41; 1 Chronicles 2; Revelation 7 KJB]

    Judah -- Reuben -- Gad -- Asher -- Naphtali -- Manasseh -- Simeon -- Levi [**] -- Issachar -- Zebulun -- Ephraim [*] -- Joseph -- Benjamin -- Dan [*] -- [Dinah ***]

    From my present Islamic sources,

    a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali translation, Yusuf (Surah) 12 is named after "Joseph", see also Al An'am 6:84; Yusuf 12:4,7,8,9,10,11,17,21,22,(31),(42),46,(47),(50),51,(55),56,58,(62),69,76,77,80,84,85,87,(88),89,90, 94,99; Ghafir or Al Mu'min 40:34 "... Joseph ..."

    Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Abridged 10 Volumes, PDF, page 613, I find mentioned "Lavi" [Levi]:

    "... The Children of Israel ... the offspring of Lavi (Levi) ..."​

    Ibid., page 614, 2400, I find "Yahudha" (Judah):

    "... the offspring of Yahudha (Judah). ...", "... name was Yahudha (Judah). ..."​

    a Qur'anic notation in Yusuf Ali's translation, notation 1752 on Yusuf 12:80, I find mentioned

    "Reuben", "Simeon", "Levi", "Judah" & "Benjamin": "... *1752 ... The eldest brother was Reuben. ... Judah, one of the elder brothers, being the fourth son, after Reuben, Simeon, and Levi, and of the same mother as these. It was Judah who stood surety to Jacob for Benjamin (Gen. 43:9) ..."​

    Let's consider the meanings of these names, beginning with JEHOVAH Elohiym:

    JEHOVAH [God]
    Adam - 'red' [through earth/clay], 'the living soul', unique son of God
    Eve - 'life giver', 'the mother of all living'
    Abel - 'breath', 'brief', 'sorrow', 'keeper of the sheep/flock'
    Cain - 'Lance/Spear', 'posession', 'tiller of the ground', 'one who pierces the ground/earth'
    Seth - 'compensation', 'setting, in the place of [Abel], appointed'
    Enos - 'man', 'mortal'
    Cainan - 'possession', 'come to obtain'
    Mahalaleel - 'praise of God [El, Elohiym]'
    Jared - 'descent', 'coming down'
    Enoch - 'dedicated', 'who walked with God, and was not, for God took him'
    Methuselah - 'his death shall bring', 'man of the dart'
    Lamech - 'powerful', 'strength'
    Noah - 'comfort', 'giving of rest/peace'
    Shem - 'name', 'good name' [and the character thereof].​

    Let's read them together:

    JEHOVAH [God], through the 'red' of the beloved unique son, the living soul [Adam], gave life [Eve], by being pierced [Cain], and in the place of [Seth] mourning/sorrow [Abel], for mortal man [Enos], instead obtained [Cainan], the praise of God [Mahalaleel], by the descending/coming down in humility [Jared], being dedicated to/walking with God, and was later not found on earth, for God took up [Enoch], for whose death would bring [Methuselah], strength/vital force [Lamech], and comfort/rest/peace [Noah], so declaring the Good Name, the Character [Shem] [of JEHOVAH].​

    Providence [double entendre]. Those names read just like Revelation 12:1-5 KJB, written some 1400 years before AD 90.

    Now to the "children of Israel [Jacob]", which were named, under inspiration by JEHOVAH. First I will cite the two not listed in Revelation 7, do to other specific reasons:

    Ephraim - 'double ash heap', 'I shall be doubly fruitful' - see Genesis 41:52 KJB
    Dan - 'a judge', 'judge' - see Genesis 30:6 KJB​

    In Revelation 7:5-7 KJB, citing a listing of the names of the 12 tribes of Israel in a specific order, we read:

    Revelation 7:4 KJB - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Revelation 7:5 KJB - Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

    Revelation 7:6 KJB - Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

    Revelation 7:7 KJB - Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

    Revelation 7:8 KJB - Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.​

    Let's see those names and their meanings together:

    Judah - 'I will praise the LORD [JEHOVAH]' - see Genesis 29:35 KJB
    Reuben - 'Behold, a son', 'he has looked upon me' - see Genesis 29:32 KJB
    Gad - 'Given good fortune', a 'troop' - see Genesis 30:11 KJB
    Asher - 'Happy', 'Happy am I' - see Genesis 30:113 KJB
    Naphtali - 'Wrestling', 'My wrestling' - see Genesis 30:8 KJB
    Manasseh - 'Causing to forget', 'Making me to forget' - see Genesis 41:51 KJB
    Simeon - 'Heard', 'God hears me' - see Genesis 29:33 KJB
    Levi - 'Joined to', 'attached me' - see Genesis 29:34 KJB
    Issachar - 'There is a recompense', 'he has purchased me' - see Genesis 30:18 KJB
    Zebulun - 'Exalted', 'a dwelling' - see Genesis 30:20 KJB
    Joseph - 'JEHOVAH has added', 'JEHOVAH will add to me' - see Genesis 30:24 KJB
    Benjamin - 'Son of the right hand', 'Son of his right hand' - see Genesis 35:17,18 KJB​

    Therefore, let's read them together [I will give two forms]:

    I will praise the LORD [JEHOVAH] [Judah], for Behold, a Son!, (for) He looked upon me [Reuben], (and) granted a troop, very much good fortune [Gad]. Happy am I [Asher] (therfore), (because) my wrestling [Naphtali], God is making me to forget [Manasseh]. God hears me [Simeon] (and) is joined/attached unto me [Levi]. He has purchased/redeemed me [Issachar] a dwelling and lifted me up [Zebulun], (for) JEHOVAH has added to me [Joseph] (as surety), the Son of His right hand [Benjamin].​

    or alternatively

    Now, will I praise the LORD [JEHOVAH] [Judah]! Behold, a Son!; (for) surely the LORD looked upon my affliction [Reuben] (and) granted His graceful good fortune [Gad] (therefore) Happy/Rejoicing am I [Asher], (even though) with great wrestlings have I wrestled [Naphtali] (but) God is making me to forget all my toils [Manasseh] (for) the LORD has heard me/my (crying) [Simeon]. He is attached and/or ever with me (I am with you, He says to me) [Levi], (for) He has redeemeed/purchased me [Issachar], lifting me up, that He may dwell with me [Zebulun], (and so) the LORD (to demonstrate this godly love) added/gave to me [Joseph], the Son of His right hand [Benjamin].

    Providence. The same, yesterday, to day and for ever. The same message, the same word.

    Luke 24:27 KJB - And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he [Jesus] expounded unto them [disciples] in all the scriptures [Old Testament, Genesis to Malachi] the things concerning himself.​

    Does Islam accept these written names and their Hebrew meanings?
    #7 One Baptism, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  8. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    This question will involve languages, other than Arabic, and more specifically, the Chinese language [I know there are variations] itself, which history goes back some 4000 years. The Chinese language is based upon word pictures, each word, being made up of an item, or event, and so the word comes together with meaning once all of the pieces are analyzed.

    A quick overview of the Chinese History and its Language, watch first to get the background [links to these sources are found here]:

    A more indepth consider from Chinese speakers, on Shang Di

    An additional study

    A summary of the thesis:

    An alternate Summary:

    Here is the PDF Book and Documentation Genesis in the Chinese Language, written by C.H. Kang and Ethel R. Nelson - http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/genesis.pdf

    How do Chinese [or even Asian/Pacific, etc] Muslims explain these things which are inherent in the very Chinese language characters from 4000 years ago, from their perspective? Any feedback would be appreciated, especially from a Chinese [or Asian] Muslim. Thank you.
  9. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    Here is what the official Islamic sources say:

    Al Nahl 16:43 "ask the people of the 'reminder'", even of those men gone before who were "inspired" by YHVH, see also Al Anbiya' 21:48, and thus the 'inspriation' given are the 'words of YHVH' in the very 'kitab' [book, or books, see Al Nisa' 4:136 'send down before', 'the book', 'his books', 'messengers'], see also Al An'am 6:34, and see Al Ma'idah 5:44 "judge by it [taurat]" being "guidance and light", and it was "guarded" having "witnesses" and Al Ma'idah 5:46, "confirming" "guidance", "light", "confirming" what was in the hands of 'Isa' of the 'Taurat' [we know what OT was in the days of Jesus, even the Dead sea scrolls confirm the Masoretic texttype] and Al Ma'idah 5:47 "judge by ... [what] was sent down in it", and Al Ma'idah 5:48, "confirming" "the book and as a guardian over it", "judge", and Yunus 10:94, "in doubt concerning what we have sent down to you, so ask those (Jews & Christians) who are [present tense] reading the book before you" and Al Ma'idah 5:68, "people of the book, you have nothing until you perform the Taurat and the Injil and what has been sent down to you (Jews and Christians) ..." and thus does the Muslim claim to 'believe' in those 'book/s" or a simply an imaginary version of them that has no evidence to have ever existed anywhere except what was placed into the mind of Abu al Qasim, by Heylel? Do they deny 'the Zabur of David', the Psalms 12:6-7 KJB? Do Muslims have documentary evidence to substantiate Islamic claims, or do they simply have a fatwa to not read that which was 'before'? Why should anyone believe a religion that came some 600 years later after Christ Jesus walked the earth, in the midst of 'Jahilyyah', and idol worship?

    Perhaps the Muslims, can help me out here. Seriously. I am not ignorant, nor unwilling to consider evidence.

    John 5:39 KJB - [Jesus said/commanded:] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Luke 24:27 KJB - And beginning at Moses [which Islam claims is 'Taurat'] and all the prophets [which includes David, and what Islam claims is the 'Zabur'/Psalms], he [Jesus] expounded unto them [two disciples, which Islamic theology claim were to be victorious unto the final day, Al 'Imran 3:55; As-Saff 61:14] in all the scriptures [the whole OT, Genesis to Malachi] the things concerning himself.

    John 1:45 KJB - Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him [Messiah], of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

    Acts 28:23 KJB - And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Zechariah 2:10 KJB - Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

    Hebrews 10:9 KJB - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.​

    However, a more important text:

    Acts 3:18 KJB - But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
    Let us notice that Acts 3:18, speaks that “all of his [God's] prophets” foretold that “Christ should suffer”. This means we ought to be able to go to the Old Testament to see if it speaks of this suffering, and manner by which Jesus would die. We shall then also consider the New Testament texts, which are built upon the foundation of the Old Testament texts.

    Deuteronomy 21:22 KJB - And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

    Deuteronomy 21:23 KJB - His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance
    Paul the Apostle, in the New Testament quotes Deuteronomy 21:22,23 KJB, in regards to the “tree” that Jesus was hung upon, when he writes:

    Galatians 3:13 KJB - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:​

    Peter does the same, recorded by Luke, in reference:

    Acts 5:30 - KJB - The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 10:39 - And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    1 Peter 2:24 KJB - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
    Jesus hands were “stretched out”, on this “tree”, even to the “right hand” and to the “left”:

    Psalms 88:9 KJB - Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.

    Romans 10:21 KJB - But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Matthew 27:38 KJB - Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.​

    For it is written of Jesus:

    Psalms 22:12 KJB - Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

    Psalms 22:13 KJB - They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

    Psalms 22:14 KJB - I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

    Psalms 22:15 KJB - My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

    Psalms 22:16 KJB - For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

    Psalms 22:17 KJB - I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

    Psalms 22:18 KJB - They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.​

    And further:

    Matthew 27:37 KJB - And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.​

    For Jesus “hands” were “pierced” by the “nails” [plural], one nail in the right hand, the other in the left, while the accusation, His title, above:

    John 20:25 KJB - The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.​

    Jesus opened his arms wide, as “far as the east is from the west” in His love, to deliver and save:

    Psalms 103:10 KJB - He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

    Psalms 10:3:11 KJB - For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

    Psalms 103:12 KJB - As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.​

    For the Scriptures declare that He would deliver by His “mighty hand” and “out stretched arm”.

    Jesus himself said, speaking in another manner:

    John 15:1 KJB - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

    John 15:5 KJB - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

    And since Jesus is “the vine”, it climbs up and supported by wood, and stretches out its tendrils along the trellises.



    Islam does not believe Jesus died on the Cross. How do they explain these things?

    Attached Files:

    #9 One Baptism, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  10. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    The Sanctuary, the Pattern/Type given by God, reveals the Cross itself, let us take a look.

    [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Hebrews 9:23
    The "earthly" tabernacle, "the tupos", the type or plan, being "patterned" after the "heavenly":

    Acts 7:44 KJB - Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

    Exodus 26:30 KJB - And thou shalt rear up the tabernacle according to the fashion thereof which was shewed thee in the mount.​

    … is they, tabernacle in the wilderness, and that which went with it, were merely the "patterns of things in the heavens", which could not truly be "purified" with those typological sacrifices ...

    Notice it says in the Holy Scriptures, the Heavenly Sanctuary, the True Tabernacle, "which the Lord pitched and not man", "the heavenly things themselves", could and must be "purified" with "better sacrifices" than the typological/shadowy ones …

    Exodus 25:9 KJB - According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it].

    Exodus 25:40 KJB - And look that thou make [them] after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

    Numbers 8:4 KJB - And this work of the candlestick [was of] beaten gold, unto the sh^ft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, [was] beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.

    1 Chronicles 28:19 KJB - All [this, said David], the LORD made me understand in writing by [his] hand upon me, [even] all the works of this pattern.

    Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

    Hebrews 8:1 KJB - Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

    Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

    Hebrews 8:5 KJB - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

    Hebrews 9:11;p KJB - “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands ...”

    Hebrews 9:24 KJB - For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:​

    Tupos = type, pattern. Strong's G5179 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G5179&t=KJB

    See Romans 5:14 KJB, Adam was the "figure" of Him who was to come.

    See 1 Corinthians 10:6,11 KJB "ensample/s" is the tupos, of that which we are to learn from, the "pattern".

    Skia = shadow, not the substance. Strong's G4639 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G4639&t=KJB

    See Colossians 2:17 KJB, shadow of the types, see Hebrews 10:1 KJB

    See Hebrews 8:5 KJB, earthly priests and High Priests, but a type pointing to Christ Jesus own Priesthood and High Priesthood

    See Hebrews 10:1 KJB, shadow of the types, see Colossians 2:17 KJB

    AntiTupos = antitype, reality which is greater than the type/shadow. Strong's G499 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...ngs=G499&t=KJB

    See Hebrews 9:24 KJB: “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

    see also 1 Peter 3:21 KJB.

    Let us now establish the pattern/type and reality/antitype:

    "...even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us..." 1 Corinthians 5:7;p KJB​

    However, moving back into this pattern of the Sanctuary, the very places of the Sanctuary itself, demonstrate the pattern of Jesus suffering and sacrifice.

    Beginning at the outer court, we have the Altar of Burnt Offering. Moving from there, we come to the Laver of Blood/Water. From thence in the outer court, we move through the veil into the Holy Place of the Sanctuary, and immediately to our right hand is the Table of Shew Bread, and to our left is then the 7 Branch Golden Candlestick, and ahead of us is the Altar of Incense. Moving past these, through the second veil, into the Most Holy Place, we come to the Ark of the Covenant and the Law of God therein. These are in the Pattern of the Cross itself. In each place, Christ Jesus received a wound.

    [1] Altar of Burnt Offering – Jesus was pierced in the Feet, by a nail.
    [2] Laver of Blood Water – Jesus was pierced in His Side, by a spear, out then came blood and water.
    [3] Table of Shew Bread – Jesus was pierced in the Right Hand, by a nail.
    [4] 7 Branch Golden Candlestick – Jesus was pierced in the Left Hand, by a nail.
    [5] Altar of Incense – Jesus died of a Broken Heart, wounded by the sin/s of mankind.
    [6] Ark of the Covenant – Jesus was pierced in the Head, by the Crown of Thorns He wore.
    Image Source: http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/6a8b2bf0.jpg

    Image Source: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y6wnmN6pkj.../Sanctuary.jpg




    There is much, much more in this Pattern given of God, yes, even the whole plan of Salvation/Redemption, and for that, I will recommend presently for further study, Ivor Myers Blueprint, and more later if needed:

    #10 One Baptism, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  11. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    Let us now turn quickly to Prophecy, and see the Pattern again:

    Isaiah 28:16,17 KJB.

    Isaiah 28:16 KJB - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Isaiah 28:17 KJB - Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.​

    Can any not see Christ Jesus in vs 16 [compare to Romans 9:33; 1 Corinthians 3:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:8, etc KJB], but what more in vs 17!

    Judgment also will I lay to the line... What is a line?, it is a measuring tool upon the horizontal... as far as the east is from the west; eternal in either direction, relationship of man to man, straight


    and righteousness to the plummet... What is a plummet?, it is a measuring tool upon the vertical, binding Heaven and earth together [Genesis 1:1, vav, aleph, tav]; from highest to lowest, relationship of man to God, straight


    And both together...


    The Justice and Righteousness of God, the very Love of God, meet there, forever demonstrated before all the universe... the truest standard of measurement, the perfect 'meter' - God' love, God is love....

    In fact, the Cross, is a Throne. Jesus is Crowned King of the Jews. He has them which are on his right and left. There is also a seat placed upon it also.

    There is more, much more, let us look and see, even in the very lives of the Patriarchs themselves...

    Moses and Joshua, Aaron and Hur; Exodus 17.

    Exodus 17:9 KJB - And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

    Exodus 17:10 KJB - So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.

    Exodus 17:11 KJB - And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.

    Exodus 17:12 KJB - But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

    Exodus 17:13 KJB - And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.​

    Moses, representing Jesus as deliverer, goes atop a hill, where all may see him [Exodus 17:9 KJB].

    Jesus was taken to the hill of the Skull [Calvary; Luke 23:33 KJB], Golgotha [Mark 15:22; John 19:17 KJB], where all may see him [Isaiah 45:22; John 12:32 KJB].​

    Moses, representing Jesus as deliverer, has two persons beside him, one on the Right, the other on the Left [Exodus 17:12 KJB].

    Jesus, was crucified between two persons, one of the Right hand, the other on the left [Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33; John 19:18 KJB].​

    Moses, representing Jesus as deliverer, was victorious for his people, so long as his hands remained outstretched and steady, until the going down of the sun [Exodus 17:12 KJB].

    Jesus, whose arms and hands were each outstretched, with a “nail” [“as a nail in a sure place”; Isaiah 22:23,25 KJB] in each hand, thus plural "nails", whose “bones were out of joint”, even “as far as the east is from the west”, that they could not move, were steady, yes even till the going down of the sun [the “ninth hour”; approx 3 PM] on the preparation day, just before the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord God and feast sabbath began together, his victory assured, memorialized forever. Just as Joshua was victorious, this Joshua was too, over the real enemies of God, delivering the people with “mighty hand” and “outstretched arm”.

    Such a great sacrifice that God has made, for us, to deliver us from the power of sin, satan and self.

    Samson; Judges 16. - https://www.blueletterbible.org/Bibl...Jdg&c=16&t=KJB

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, was born specially, by promise from God, to a woman which could not bare, and he was to be filled with the Holy Ghost, and to be dedicated to the Lord from birth to death, and to be deliverer of the people [Judges 13 KJB].

    Jesus, a holy child, was born of the virgin Mary, by Holy Ghost, to be dedicated to the Lord forever [Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27,30 KJB], and to be the Saviour and deliverer of all people, who would accept the sacrifice [Matthew 1:21; Acts 13:23; Romans 11:26, etc KJB].​

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, was attempted to be taken many times by his enemies, but could not be until betrayed by a woman [harlot] he loved, for silver [Judges 16:5,18; KJB even as the type of Christ, Joseph was sold/betrayed by Juda for silver [Genesis 37:27,28 KJB]], into the hands of his enemies as a slave, even though he had “shewed [her] all his heart” [Judges 16:18 KJB].

    Jesus, also could not be taken, until his appropriate time [Daniel 9:24-27 KJB, in the Year AD 31, in the First Month, Abib/Nisan, on the 14th Day of the Month, being the 6th Day of the week [aka Friday, preparation day], dying at the 9th hour [roughly 3 PM, the time of the evening Sacrifice], to enter into the 7th Day the Sabbath rest of Creation/Redemption] betrayed by a woman [the harlot Church, physical Israel, even at the hands of Judas], for silver [Zechariah 11:12,13; Matthew 26:15, 27:3 KJB], into the hands of the enemy, for the price of a slave [Matthew 27:9 KJB], even though God had revealed all His heart in Christ Jesus to the world.​

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, carried “the bar” of the “gate” [the place of judgment], even the great weight, across his “shoulders”, up to the top of a “hill” [Judges 16:3 KJB].

    Jesus, also carried the cross [John 19:17 KJB], after a manner [Simon of Cyrene, being an example for us, to take up that Cross and bear it for Jesus; Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23 KJB], up to the hill of Golgotha [Matthew 27:33; Mark 15:22; John 19:17 KJB], the place of the Skull [the very place of the mind/heart of man; even Calvary; Luke 23:33 KJB], bearing the weight of the not merely the cross, but the sins of the whole world [Isaiah 63:9 KJB], the government and judgment should be upon his shoulders [Isaiah 9:6, 22:22 KJB].​

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, was blinded [Judges 16:21 KJB], that he could not see, and was ill-treated and mocked of his enemies [Judges 16:25 KJB], the LORD being departing from him [Judges 16:20 KJB].

    Jesus, also was blind-folded [Luke 22:64 KJB], that he could not see, and was ill-treated and mocked of his enemies [Job 12:4; Matthew 27:29,31; Mark 15:20; Luke 23:11,36 KJB], apparently forsaken of God [Psalms 22:1; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34 KJB].​

    Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, then in the last moments of his life, was taken out, placed between two pillars [Judges 16:25 KJB] and leaned upon them with his hands outstretched, to the right and to the left [Judges 16:29 KJB], east and west, praying [Judges 16:28 KJB], and dying with the enemies [Judges 16:30 KJB], destroyed the Temple [Judges 16:30 KJB], slaying his enemies more in his death, than in his life.

    Jesus, also then was placed between two persons, one of the Right hand, the other on the left [Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33; John 19:18 KJB]. Jesus said that He would destroy the Temple [John 2:19 KJB], by which he slays in/by his death the enmity between God and mankind [Genesis 3:15; Ephesians 2;16, etc KJB], forever magnifying the Law of God, making it honourable [Isaiah 42:21 KJB], demonstrating its eternality. His hands and arms outstretched, with a “nail” [“as a nail in a sure place”; Isaiah 22:23,25 KJB; thus plural "nails"] in each hand, whose “bones were out of joint”, even “as far as the east is from the west” to save and deliver, even unto a gainsaying people.

    There are many other examples, in type. I will recommend a book which covers a lot of them [Shadows of Light; Seeing Jesus In All The Bible; by Pastor Doug Batchelor] - Shadows of Light

    Also see for more information and examples here - A Witness To Islam/Muslim/Mahometans
    #11 One Baptism, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  12. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    This question [at the bottom of this] involves the background, pedigree of Hagar/Agar/Hajira in the authentic Islamic sources.

    I shall begin how this question came to be, as it began with a statment I found while researching online in various places.

    Wikipedia [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar_in_Islam [not the most accurate source, I know, but a place to begin an open inquiry]] states the following about the Islamic 'Hajar' [Hagar, Agar, Hajira]: "... He [Abraham] married a Pharos's daughter and her name was Hagar. ..."

    This statement, whether true or false [for I do not know what the primary authentic Islamic sources say on it], intrigued me. Yet, in all of the Islamic sources that I know to look for for authentic verification, I could not find in either a Qur'an [I find not her name mentioned even once therein, neither her pedigree], aHadith [Sahih], neither Tafsir where the Islamic 'Hajar' is a daughter of an Egyptian Pharos.

    What I could find in the primary authentic Islamic sources, was that she ['Hajar'] was an Egyptian [pagan] slave girl:

    Sahih Al-Bukahri Volume 3, Book 47, Number 803 reveals that the King of Egypt was a "pagan", and that Hagar ['Ajar, Hajar'] was "... a slave-girl for my [Sarah's] service ..."

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle said, "The Prophet Abraham migrated with Sarah. The people (of the town where they migrated) gave her Ajar (i.e. Hajar). Sarah returned and said to Abraham, "Do you know that Allah has humiliated that pagan and he has given a slave-girl for my service?"​

    Sahih Al-Bukahri Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578
    reveals the same, saying, "... The tyrant then gave Hajar as a girl-servant to Sarah. ... game me [Sarah] Hajar for service. ..."

    Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasion. Twice for the Sake of Allah when he said, "I am sick," and he said, "(I have not done this but) the big idol has done it." The (third was) that while Abraham and Sarah (his wife) were going (on a journey) they passed by (the territory of) a tyrant.

    Someone said to the tyrant, "This man (i.e. Abraham) is accompanied by a very charming lady." So, he sent for Abraham and asked him about Sarah saying, "Who is this lady?" Abraham said, "She is my sister." Abraham went to Sarah and said, "O Sarah! There are no believers on the surface of the earth except you and I. This man asked me about you and I have told him that you are my sister, so don't contradict my statement." The tyrant then called Sarah and when she went to him, he tried to take hold of her with his hand, but (his hand got stiff and) he was confounded. He asked Sarah. "Pray to Allah for me, and I shall not harm you." So Sarah asked Allah to cure him and he got cured. He tried to take hold of her for the second time, but (his hand got as stiff as or stiffer than before and) was more confounded. He again requested Sarah, "Pray to Allah for me, and I will not harm you." Sarah asked Allah again and he became alright. He then called one of his guards (who had brought her) and said, "You have not brought me a human being but have brought me a devil." The tyrant then gave Hajar as a girl-servant to Sarah. Sarah came back (to Abraham) while he was praying. Abraham, gesturing with his hand, asked, "What has happened?" She replied, "Allah has spoiled the evil plot of the infidel (or immoral person) and gave me Hajar for service." (Abu Huraira then addressed his listeners saying, "That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e. the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar's son)."​

    Sahih Al-Bukahri Volume 7, Book 62, Number 21 reveals the same, saying, "... (The tyrant) gave her [Sarah] Hajar. Sara said, "... gave me Hajar to serve me. ..."

    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 21:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said: Abraham did not tell lies except three. (One of them was) when Abraham passed by a tyrant and (his wife) Sara was accompanying him (Abu Huraira then mentioned the whole narration and said[​IMG] (The tyrant) gave her Hajar. Sara said, "Allah saved me from the hands of the Kafir (i.e. infidel) and gave me Hajar to serve me." (Abu Huraira added[​IMG] That (Hajar) is your mother, O Banu Ma'-As-Sama' (i.e., the Arabs).​

    Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Chapter 38, Number 5848, says, "... he [tyrant] gave Hajira ['Hagar, Hajar, Ajar'] as a gift to her [Sarah]. ... gave me [Sarah] a maid-servant. ..."

    Book 030, Number 5848:

    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) never told a lie but only thrice: two times for the sake of Allah (for example, his words):" I am sick," and his words:" But it was the big one amongst them which has done that" and because of Sara (his wife). He had come in a land inhabited by haughty and cruel men along with Sara. She was very good-looking amongst the people, so he said to her: If these were to know that you are my wife they would snatch you away from me, so if they ask you tell that you are my sister and in fact you are my sister in Islam, and I do not know of any other Muslim in this land besides I and you. And when they entered that land the tyrants came to see her and said to him (the king): 'there comes to your land a woman, whom you alone deserve to possess, so he (the kings sent someone (towards her) and she was brought and Ibrahim (peace be upon him) stood in preyer, and when she visited him (the tyrant king came) he could help but stretch his hand towards her and his hand was tied up. He said: Supplicate Allah so that He may release my hand and I will do no harm to you. She did that and the man repeated (the same highhandedness) and his hand was again tied up more tightly than on the first occasion and he said to her like that and she again did that (supplicated), but he repeated (the same highhandedness and his hands were tied up more tightly than on the previous occasion). He then again said: Supplicate your Lord so that He may set my hand free; by. @llah I shall do no harm to you. She did and his hand was freed. Then he called the person who had brought her and said to him: You have brought to me the satan and you have not brought to me a human being, so turn them out from my land, and he gave Hajira as a gift to her. She returned (along with Hajira) and when Ibrahim (peace be upon him) saw her, he said: How have you returned? She said: With full safety (have I returned). Allah held the hand of that debauch and he gave me a maid-servant. Abu Hiaraira said: O sons of the rain of the sky, she is your mother.​

    Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 Volume, PDF page 3218, under section "How Ibrahim Broke The Idols", commenting on Al Anbiya 21:57-63], is it said,

    ".... Take her out and give her Hajar. So she was taken out and given Hajar, and she went back. When Ibrahim realized that she had come back, he finished his prayer and turned around. He said, "What happened'' She said, "Allah took care of the evil disbeliever's plot, and he gave me Hajar as a servant.'') ..."​

    The various statements I read in the primary authentic Islamic sources seem to corroborate the Biblical [KJB] account, that Hagar was only an pagan Egyptian slave-girl of no noble birth [ie. not the daughter of the king of Egypt, yet his slave-girl] whatsoever, as read from the following verses:

    ...to be continued ...
  13. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    ... continued ...

    The account given by the prophet of Jehovah, - Moses, in Genesis [KJB]:

    Genesis 16:1 KJB - Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.

    Genesis 16:2 KJB - And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

    Genesis 16:3 KJB - And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

    Genesis 16:8 KJB - And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.

    Genesis 21:9 KJB - And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

    Genesis 21:10 KJB - Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

    Genesis 21:11 KJB - And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

    Genesis 21:12 KJB - And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    Genesis 21:13 KJB - And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

    Genesis 21:21 KJB - And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

    Genesis 25:12 KJB - Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:​

    and the Apostle Paul's New Testament Epistle to the Galatians:

    Galatians 4:21 KJB - Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

    Galatians 4:22 KJB - For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

    Galatians 4:23 KJB - But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    Galatians 4:24 KJB - Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

    Galatians 4:25 KJB - For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    Galatians 4:26 KJB - But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Galatians 4:27 KJB - For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

    Galatians 4:28 KJB - Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    Galatians 4:29 KJB - But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

    Galatians 4:30 KJB - Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

    Galatians 4:31 KJB - So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.​

    Therefore, with these finds in my own personal research and studies, I came to the question:

    Is there specific reference in the primary authentic Islamic sources where Hagar [Hajar, Hajira, Agar] is actually stated to be the daughter of the king of Egypt, Pharaoh and not just a slave-girl of pagan Egypt? If so, would you please cite and list that source/s with link [where possible]. If not, does anyone know where such a statement about Hagar would come from in the Islamic theology?

    It actually comes from a Midrashic [Talmudic Jewish], Rabbah 45:1, source - Hagar: Midrash and Aggadah | Jewish Women's Archive

    Therefore, I must disagree with any Islamic position which regards Hajar still possibly being the daughter of a Pharos [king of Egypt, which comes from a Midrashic source], according to the Islamic authentic source, since it is written that she [Hajar] was a slave-girl before being given for Sarah's service, which is how Sahih al Bukhari, narrated by Abu Huraira [a most close companion of Muhammad]:

    Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 47, Number 803 reveals that the King of Egypt was a "pagan", and that Hagar ['Ajar, Hajar'] was "... a slave-girl for my [Sarah's] service ..."

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle said, "The Prophet Abraham migrated with Sarah. The people (of the town where they migrated) gave her Ajar (i.e. Hajar). Sarah returned and said to Abraham, "Do you know that Allah has humiliated that pagan and he has given a slave-girl for my service?"​
  14. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>

    Dec 11, 2001
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    Do you enjoy talking to yourself all the time? Just askin'.
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  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    May your life be always filled with friends and family who love you, and surround you and enjoy being with you, ready to uplift you, should you ever fall, tenderly comforting you, should you ever get discouraged, encouraging you in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Thank you for keeping an eye on me, and speaking a kind word here and there to let me know you care, it lets me know I am not alone, humanly speaking.

    In all charity, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, may the eternal blessing of God rest upon you and your family, when and where He wills, even forever and ever. Amen.
  16. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    This question [at the bottom of this documentation] concerns 'Arabia' in its post [afterwards], concurrent [present] and pre-Abrahamic times and its human genetic populace thereof, which focus will be in regards a recurring statement I have heard stated on numerous occasions in regards Ismail [Ishmael], as 'the Father of the Arab/s'.

    I have heard/read from various persons, both Islamic and non, that 'Ismail' [Ishmael, the son of the Egyptian slave-girl Hagar, and Abraham] is the 'Father of the Arab/s'.

    For instance, in Yusuf-Ali's Qur'anic translation with notations:

    Sad 38:48 -- "*4205 Isma'il, the Patriarch of the Arab race, ..."​

    Maryam 19:54 -- "*2506... He [Isma'il] was the fountainhead of the Arabian Ummah, and in his posterity came the Prophet of Allah. ..."

    Al Saffat 37:103 -- "*4101 ... Isma'il, ancestor of the Arabs ..."​

    For instance, in Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578 (with interpolation):

    Narrated Abu Huraira: ... "That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e. the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar's son)."​

    This is a really unique claim, but is it true or exaggerated or misunderstood or false?

    I wanted to know for myself if this specific statement had documentable validity, and so began my search into the various records, such as from the Biblical [KJB], the historical and as well as the primary authentic Islamic records [a Qur'an [itself without notations], aHadith [Sahih] and Tafsir, etc.]

    What I found in regards Isma'il was this, that he is mentioned in the following sources:

    a Qur'an [Yusuf-Ali translation]:

    Al Baqara 2:125,127,133,136,140
    Al 'Imran 3:84
    Al Nisa' 4:163
    Al An'am 6:86
    Ibrahim 14:39
    Maryam 19:54
    Al Anbiya 21:85
    Sad 38:48​

    and one additional assumed [Islamic traditional, as Yusuf-Ali says] reference, but does not actually name Isma'il in the Qur'anic text itself (and very rather points to Isaac instead):

    Al Saffat 37:100-111​

    However, though Isma'il is mentioned [except the last citation, which is assumed in Islamic tradition] directly in these texts, there is no explicit or even of implicit mention of his being the 'Father of the Arab/s', though certain texts do speak of a 'progeny', merely in relation to being 'Muslims', not Arab/s.

    The only times that the word 'Arab' appears in a Qur'an is in the use of the language of Muhammad's day, "Arabic", "Arabs", "non-Arab" [citing Yusuf Ali's translation with notation brackets]:

    Al Tawbah or Bara'ah 9:90 -- "... the desert Arabs (also) ..."
    Al Tawbah or Bara'ah 9:97 -- "The Arabs of the desert ..."
    Al Tawbah or Bara'ah 9:98 -- "... the desert Arabs ..."
    Al Tawbah or Bara'ah 9:99 -- "... the desert Arabs ..."
    Al Tawbah or Bara'ah 9:101 -- "... the desert Arabs ..."
    Al Tawbah or Bara'ah 9:120 -- "... the Bedouin Arabs ..."
    Yusuf 12:2 -- "... an Arabic Qur'an ..."
    Al Ra'd 13:37 -- "... in Arabic ..."
    Al Nahl 16:103 -- "... this is Arabic ..."
    Ta-Ha 20:113 -- "... an arabic Qur'an ..."
    Al Shu'Ara 26:195 -- "In the perspicuous Arabic tongue."
    Al Shu'Ara 26:198 -- "... the non-Arabs ..."
    Al 'Ankabut 29:47 -- "... these (pagan Arabs) ..."
    Al Zumar 39:28 -- "... (It is) a Qur'an in Arabic ..."
    Fussialt or Ha Mim 41:3 -- "... a Qur'an in Arabic ..."
    Fussialt or Ha Mim 41:44 -- "... a Qur'an (in the language)(4516) other than Arabic ... (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" ..."
    Al Shura 42:7 -- "... an Arabic Qur'an ..."
    Al Zukhruf 43:3 -- "... a Qur'an in Arabic ..."
    Al Ahqaf 46:12 -- "... in the Arabic tongue ..."
    Al Fath 48:12 -- "The desert Arabs ..."
    Al Fath 48:16 -- "... the desert Arabs ..."
    Al Hujurat 49:14 -- "The desert Arabs ..."​

    Additional possible mentions of 'Arabic language' by implication may be found in:

    Ibrahim 14:4 -- "... in the language (1874) of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. ..."

    Maryam 19:97 -- "... So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue ..."

    Al Dukhan 44:58 -- "Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, (4734) in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed."​

    [I will have a specific Question coming soon on this subject as well, in regards a Qur'an being given in the "Arabic" language, it has hundreds of non-Arabic words, to be listed later.]

    ... to be continued ...
  17. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    ... continued ...

    In searching the Islamic aHadith [Sahih] and Tafsir, I found rather interesting material in regards "Arab/s/ians/ic", for instance, that in the days of Hajar [Hagar/Hajira/Agar] and Isma'il [Ishmael] there were Arabic peoples ["Jurhum (an Arab tribe)"], with an Arabic language already in existence:

    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 40, Number 556:

    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    The Prophet said, "May Allah be merciful to the mother of Ishmael! If she had left the water of Zam-Zam (fountain) as it was, (without constructing a basin for keeping the water), (or said, "If she had not taken handfuls of its water"), it would have been a flowing stream. Jurhum (an Arab tribe) came and asked her, 'May we settle at your dwelling?' She said, 'Yes, but you have no right to possess the water.' They agreed."​

    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583 [sectioned]:

    Narrated Ibn Abbas: ... She lived in that way till some people from the tribe of Jurhum or a family from Jurhum passed by her and her child, as they (i.e. the Jurhum people) were coming through the way of Kada'. ... The Prophet further said, "Ishmael's mother was pleased with the whole situation as she used to love to enjoy the company of the people. So, they settled there, and later on they sent for their families who came and settled with them so that some families became permanent residents there. The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. ..."​

    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, 584 [sectioned]:

    "Narrated Ibn Abbas: ... Afterwards some people of the tribe of Jurhum ... "​

    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 597:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle was asked, "Who is the most honorable amongst the people?" He replied, "The most Allah fearing." The people said, "We do not want to ask you about this." He said, "The most honorable person is Joseph, Allah's Prophet, the son of Allah's Prophet, the son of Allah's Prophet, the son of Allah's Khalil" The people said, 'We do not want to ask you about this." He said," Then you want to ask me about the origins of the Arabs? People are of various origins. The best in the pre-lslamic period are the best in Islam, provided they comprehend (the religious knowledge)."

    [Sidenote, however, in other Narrations in this Sahih of al-Bukhari, the phrase, "People are of various origins", becomes "People are of various natures."]​

    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 50 [sectioned]:

    "Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun ... I also recommend that he do good to the 'Arab bedouin, as they are the origin of the 'Arabs and the material of Islam. ..."​

    Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 343, citing Sahih al-Bukhari], said,

    "... Afterwards some people of the tribe of Jurhum, passing through Kada', made camp at the bottom of the valley. ... "And thus they stayed there and sent for their relatives to join them. Later on, her boy reached the age of puberty and married a lady from them, for Isma`il learned Arabic from them ..."​

    Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 1767], says,

    "... For example, Allah destroyed the people of Nuh, and saved Nuh and his believing followers. Ibn Wahb said that he was told that Ibn `Abbas said that eighty men were saved with Nuh in the ship, one of them was Jurhum, who spoke Arabic. ..."​

    Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 4096, commenting on Saba' 34:15-17], says,

    "... (It was neither a land nor a woman. It was a man who had ten children, six of whom went Yemen and four of whom went Ash-Sham. Those who went Ash-Sham were Lakhm, Judham, `Amilah and Ghassan. Those who went south were Kindah, Al-Ash`ariyyun, Al-Azd, Madhhij, Himyar and Anmar.) A man asked, `Who are Anmar' He said:

    (Those among whom are Khath`am and Bajilah.) ''This was recorded by At-Tirmidhi in his Jami` [Sunan] in more detail than this; then he said, "This is a Hasan Gharib Hadith. '' The genealogists -- including Muhammad bin Ishaq -- said, "The name of Saba' was `Abd Shams bin Yashjub bin Yarub bin Qahtan; he was called Saba' because he was the first Arab tribe to disperse. He was also known as Ar-Ra'ish, because he was the first one to take booty in war and give it to his people, so he was called Ar-Ra'ish; because the Arabs call wealth Rish or Riyash. They differ over Qahtan, about whom there were three views. (The first ) he descended from the line of Iram bin Sam bin Nuh, then there were three dif ferent views over how he descended from him. (The second) was that he was descended from `Abir, another name for Hud, peace be upon him, then there were also three different views over exactly how he descended from him. (The third) was that he was descended from Isma` il bin Ibrahim Al-Khalil, peace be upon him, then there were also three different views over exactly how he descended from him. This was discussed in full detail by Imam Al-Haf iz Abu `Umar bin `Abdul-Barr An-Namari, may Allah have mercy on him, in his book Al-Musamma Al-Inbah `Ala Dhikr Usul Al-Qaba'il Ar-Ruwat. The meaning of the Prophet's words,

    (He was a man among the Arabs.) means that he was one of the original Arabs, who were before Ibrahim, peace be upon him, and were descendants of Sam bin Nuh (Shem, the son of Noah). According to the third view mentioned above, he descended from Ibrahim, peace be upon him, but this was not a well-known view among them. ..."​

    Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 4096, commenting on Al Dukhan 44:34-37], says,

    "... They Tubba` were Arab descendants of Qahtan, just as these people (Quraysh) were Arab descendants of `Adnan. ..."​

    Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF page 5653, commenting on Al Fil 105:1-5], "Qahtan", is there also mentioned.
    ... to be continued ...
  18. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    ... continued ...
    In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Baqara 2:124-127, we read of the Islamic "Ibrahim" and "Isma'il" in a place which is assumed to be Makkah [Mecca], and rebuilding the foundations of the "House" [Ka'ba] and "sanctify[ing]" [Al Baqara 2:125; see Yusuf-Ali's notation *129 [sectioned] "... Such Paganism or star-worship or planet-worship as there was in Abraham's time was first cleared out of Makkah by Abraham, This is the chief meaning of "sanctification" or "purification" in 2:125, ..."] it of the paganism and idols, which would mean that there were already peoples in that area, who had build such a city, and placed their idols there, long before the Islamic "Ibrahim" and "Isma'il" arrived there.

    In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Ibrahim 14:9, it says in part,

    "Has not the story reached you, (O people!), of those who (went) before you? - of the people of Noah, and ´Ad, and Thamud? - And of those who (came) after them? ..."​
    In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Hajj 22:42, it says in part, "... People of Noah, and ´Ad and Thamud;", which afterwards in Al Hajj 22:43 follows the names of "Abraham and Lot", and in Al Hajj 22:44, follows the name of "Moses", which immediate pattern of names seems to indicate that "'Ad and Thamud", by Islamic criteria/standards, was before or at the time of Abraham.

    In a Qur'an. Yusuf-Ali, Al Mu'minun 23:30-31, it says in part [having mentioned the disembarking of Noah in Al Mu'minun 23:23-29, "Then We raised after them another generation.", "And We sent to them a messenger from among themselves, (2894) ...", and the notation by Yusuf-Ali *2894, says [in part], "If this refers to any particular prophet, it must be Hud whose mission was to the 'Ad people, or to Salih, whose mission was to the Thamud people. That is the sequence after Noah in 11:50-60 and 61-68. But I think that as the name is not mentioned, we are to understand in general the type of post-Flood prophets until we come later on to Moses and Jesus ..."

    In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Furqan 25:37-38 and notation, we read of the people of "'Ad and Thamud", following after the name of "Noah", wherein notation *3094 says,

    "3094 Commentators are not clear as to who the "Companions of the Ross" were. The root meaning of "rass" is an old well or shallow water-pit. Another root connects it with the burial of the dead. But it is probably the name of a town or place. The "Companions of the Rass" may well have been the people of Shu'ayb, as they are here mentioned with 'Ad,Thamud, and Lot 's people, and the people of Shu'ayb are mentioned in a similar connection in 26:176-190 and in 11:84-95. Shu'ayb was the prophet of the Madyan people in the northwest of Arabia , where many old wells are found. There is however, an oasis town al Rass in the district of Qasim in Middle Najd, about thirty-five miles southwest of the town of 'Unayzah, reputed to be the central point of the Arabian Peninsula, and situated midway between Makkah and Basrah. See Doughty's Arabia Deserta, thin paper onevolume edition, London 1926, II. 435 and Map. Lat. 26°N., and Long. 43°E."​
    In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Shu'ara 26:123-124,141-142, after Noah is again mentioned in Al Shu'ara 26:106-119, we have the mention of "'Ad", and "Hud", as well as "Thamud" and "Salih" [Al Shu'ara 26:141-142], as well as "Lut" and family, and the destruction of peoples [Lot, Al Shu'ara 26:160,161,167,170-173], which thus indicates, at least according to Qur'anic and Islamic sources in regards geo-political peoples, were around at the same general era of time. If tied to a Biblical [KJB] timeframe, because of the mention of Noah, unto the destruction of the peoples [which would indicate the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc], and with Lot, it would indicate that these people groups existed in the Arabian peninsula before, during and after Abraham's journey from Ur of the Chaldees and his sojourn into Canaan and Egypt and out again.​

    According to Islamic [Al-A'raf 7:73-74; "Salih" possibly being "Salah" of Arphaxad, Genesis 10:24 KJB] and possibly some non-Islamic historic sources [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thamud ], the "'Ad and Thamud", peoples existing [southern Arabia, in the Hejaz, see also Yusuf-Ali notation *2002, on Al Hijr 15:80, "2002 "The Rocky Tract" is undoubtedly a geographical name. On the maps of Arabia will be found a tract called the Hijr, north of Madinah. Jabal Hijr is about 150 miles north of Madinah. The tract would fall on the highway to Syria . This was the country of Thamud. For them and the country see 7:73, n. 1043.] circa 715 BC, and possibly long before in the time even before and during Abraham's time, were supposed to be descendants of the Islamic "Iram" [Bible [KJB] "Aram"] and "Ars" [Bible [KJB] "Uz"], see also Genesis 10:22,23; 1 Chronicles 1:17 KJB.

    According to Ibn Ishaq's siratul Rasu'allah
    [the first classical work of the biographical life of Muhammad] [circa AD 765], page 3-4 [sectioned], we read of the Islamic genealogical line of Isma'il,

    "... [page 3] Isma'il, b. Ibrahim, the friend of the Compassionate, b. Tarih (who is Azar), b. Nahur, b. Sarugh, b. Ra'u, b. Falikh, b. 'Aybar, b. Shalikh, b. Arfakhshadh, b. Sam, b. Nuh, b. Lamk, b. Mattushalakh, b. Akhnukh, who is the prophet Idris according to what they allege, 2, but God knows best (he was the first of the sons of Adam to whom prophecy and writing with a pen were given), b. Yard, b. Mahlil, b. Qaynan, b. Yanish, b. Shith, b. Adam (10).* ...", and then,

    "... [page 4] 'Ad b. 'Aus b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh and Thamud and Jadis the two sons of 'Abir b. Iram b. Sam b. nuh, and Tasm and 'Imlaq and Umaym the sons of Lawidh b. Sam b. Nuh are all Arabs. ..."​

    It is obvious, if I take the Qur'anic, authentic Islamic aHadith, Tafsir and historic biographical sources, even at their own face value, in the matter of peoples living in Arabia before Isma'il, I see that I cannot come to any other conclusion than that Isma'il is not "the" [singular, definite article] 'Father of the Arab/s', nor even the originator of the Arabic language/s, as some might desire to say, as according to the authentic Islamic source, Isma'il "learned Arabic from" a people group already present in the Arabian penisula, and of which were of the peoples of "Qahtan" [possibly the "Joktan" [a son of Eber] of the Bible [KJB], Genesis 10:25,30-32; 1 Chronicles 1:20 KJB], and that the peoples of "'Ad and Thamud" were already present also, among others.

    ... to be continued ...
    #18 One Baptism, Feb 13, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  19. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    ... to be continued ...

    I also searched the Biblical [KJB] record, and here is what I find:

    The Bible [KJB] itself, God's perfectly inspired, preserved and eternal word [Psalms 12:6-7, 105:8, 119:89,160; Isaiah 40:8; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; John 10:35; 2 Timothy 3:10-17 KJB], though it does not agree with the Islamic aHadith sources in the specifics of Ishmael's spouses, [similarly, though not exactly], nor even of the specifics of his migrational location does declare that there were indeed peoples already populated in the Arabian peninsula, specifically from the time just after the flood of Noah, when his descendants spread out over the earth, from "Shem, Ham and Japheth" [Genesis 5:32 KJB].

    However, before considering those events, I wanted to look at the origin and later migration of Ishmael himself from the Bible's [KJB] texts.

    Ishmael, according to the Bible [KJB] was born of the lineage of Abraham [a 'son' [descendant] of "Eber", hence "Abram the Hebrew" [Genesis 14:13 KJB; see also Genesis 39:14,17 KJB and so also Joseph, son of Jacob/Israel [grandson of Abraham], was an “Hebrew”, as per Genesis 41:12 KJB]] and of Hagar [an Egyptian slave-girl given to Sarai/h to be a bondservant, by a king of Egypt; Genesis 16:1-3,8,10, 17:20, 21:9-21, 25:12,17; Galatians 4:21-31 KJB] as may be seen from Genesis 16:10, 17:20, 1 Chronicles 1:28 KJB.

    This means that of origin biologically, geographically and of language, Ishmael was an Hebrew [father's side] - Egyptian [mother's side] born [Genesis 16:3, see also "plain of Mamre", Genesis 14:13, 18:1, 49:30 KJB] and sojourned in the land of Canaan [a 'son' of Ham; Genesis 10:6,20; 1 Chronicles 1:8 KJB], and thus may be rightly called [a coined phrase] 'an Hegyptian Canaanite', whose native language/s was/were not Arabic, but that of Abraham [ie, Chaldean, see "Ur of the Chaldeees" Genesis 11:28,31, 15:7, 24:4; Nehemiah 9:7 KJB] and even of his mother, ie Egyptian, and possibly even of the langauge of Canaan, having sojourned there.

    There were already peoples in the Arabian peninsula [as spread all over], such as the Joktanite [Genesis 10:25-29; 1 Chronicles 1:19-23 KJB], and the Palgite [of Peleg, the Pelegite, Genesis 10:25, 11:16-19; 1 Chronicles 1:19,25 KJB], and even the Albert Barnes Commentary picks up on this [Genesis 16:10], saying, “... The Ishmaelites constituted the second element of the great Arab nation [Genesis 25:3-4] ...”, though according to other and greater evidences, may not even be the "second element", as Albert Barnes says eleswhere, on Genesis 25:6, " ... These descendants of Abraham and Keturah are the third contribution of Palgites to the Joktanites, who constituted the original element of the Arabs ...". Places/cities like "Hazarmaveth" [named after the son of "Joktan", see Genesis 10:26; 1 Chronicles 1:20 KJB] were already in existence then, as others. Moreoever, "Uz" [Genesis 10:22; 1 Chronicles 1:17 KJB], and the "Sinites" [of 'Sin' or 'Sinai', Genesis 10:17 KJB] were also present. Even the children of Ham, having moved down into Canaan, Egypt, and in the Arabian areas would have sojourned there.

    In Genesis 17:20 KJB, God promises, "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

    Since this is so, and there were peoples already in the Arabian peninsula, and Ishmael was not yet made "a great nation", he cannot [logically, evidentially] be "the" [singular, definite article] 'Father of the Arab/s', from a Biblical [KJB] perspective. Is he an ancestor to some who were later born in Arabia, and who spoke a form of Arabic dialect? Absolutely, but it does not make him "the" Father of all the people groups in the Arabian peninsula, even though he was to be a "great nation". If I were to say otherwise, that would be overstatment of the facts, from all sources thus searched.

    Even beyond this, when Ishmael and his mother, Hagar, were to be "cast out" [Genesis 21:10 KJB] at the behest of Sarah, and confirmed by God [Genesis 21:12 KJB], they first went into the "wilderness of Beersheba" [Genesis 21:14 KJB], which is where Ishmael "grew" and "dwelt" [Genesis 21:20 KJB], and thus "dwelt in the wlderness of Paran" [Genesis 21:21 KJB, see and compare Genesis 14:5-7; Numbers 10:11-13, 12:15-16, 13:1-3,25-27; Deuteronomy 1:1-2, 33:1-2; 1 Samuel 25:1; 1 Kings 11:17-19; Habakkuk 3:3 KJB], his mother, Hagar, taking "him a wife out of the land of Egypt" [Genesis 21:21 KJB], being her native homeland, and closer to that area. Thus the children of Ishmael's first wife, would be 2/3rd's Egyptian, 1/3 Hebrew, and would speak a combination of Egyptian/Canaanite/Chaldean. Neither Arabian blood, nor language even comes into this mixture at this point, though they were to live in the "east country" [Genesis 25:6 KJB].

    Abraham, after the death of Sarah [Genesis 23:1-20 KJB], "again ... took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Genesis 25:1 KJB], whose sons were "Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah." [Genesis 25:2 KJB], "And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. ..." [Genesis 25:3 KJB], whose names are still found in the cities of the Arabian penisula [see Genesis 25:1-4; 1 Chronicles 1:32,33 KJB], such as Dedanim [Isaiah 21:13 KJB], and Midian, as well as descendants of Amalek [no primary relation to Ishmael [* see below], except through possible later co-mingling], and also of Esau [Edomites, Idumeans], etc. These having no relation to Ishmael's line, except through later co-mingling, among the Ishmeelites, Midianites, Edomites, Egyptians, Persians, Syrians, etc. There are texts which declare that the sons/descendants of Ishmael migrated further into the Arabian peninsula, such as "Kedar", "Tema" etc. whose cities names are named after there, [see Genesis 28:9, 36:3; 1 Chronicles 5:18-23; Job 6:19-20; Isaiah 21:13-17, 42:11, 60:5-7; Jeremiah 2:10, 25:17-33, 49:28-33; Ezekiel 27:21; Psalms 120:1-7 KJB].

    The word Arabia, means to mix, to be intermingled, a mixed multitude, and from that we can see this in Genesis 37:25-28, 39:1; Judges 8:21-28; 1 Chronicles 2:17, 5:10,19,20, 27:30,31; Psalms 83:6; Galatians 4:22-31 KJB.

    As far as the Bible [KJB] is concerned, it never specifically states that Ishmael himself moved into the Arbaian peninsula, though it is possible being to the "east", but even this of itself would not make him Arabian [Moses was born in Egypt, it doesn't make him Egyptian, and lived in Midian, it doesn't make him of Midian], nor the Father of all Arabians, but simply a sojourner there, his children, according to the Bible [KJB], being of Hebrew/Egyptian/Egyptian [father, mother [Hagar, and the Hagarenes], wife] blood at the first, then later becoming more intermingled among the various people groups who were already in the region [whether partially Egyptian, Canaanite, Joktanite, Palgite, Sinite, etc].

    ... to be continued ...
  20. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Apr 5, 2015
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    [*] Amalek [some have thought that Amalek, or the original primary Amalekites was/were of Ishmael, but this is not so, see the following Genealogy]:

    Isaac [was the son of Abraham [the Hebrew] and Sarah [Sarai, half-sister to Abram, Genesis 12:13, 20:2,12 KJB], Genesis 17:19,21, 21:1-8, 35:29; 1 Chronicles 1:28,34; Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34 KJB], and he was married to Rebekah [Genesis 22:23, 24:62-67 KJB], daughter of Bethuel [the Syrian of Padanaram, Genesis 22:23, 24:15,24,47, 25:20, 28:5 KJB], son of Nahor and Milcah [Genesis 22:20 KJB], of the ancient land of Abraham, Ur of the Chaldees [Genesis 11:28,31, 15:7; Nehemiah 9:7 KJB].

    Rebekah - [married Isaac, Abrahams' + Sarah's son] [Granddaughter to Nahor + Milcah; Grandniece/Great Granddaughter to Haran; Great Grandniece [by Bethuel [the syrian] through Nahor + Milcah] / Great Great Grandniece [by Bethuel [the syrian] through Milcah through Haran] to Abraham; which makes her 2nd [through Nahor + Milcah] and 3rd [through Bethuel [the syrian] through Milcah through Haran] cousin to Isaac, also then being his wife.]

    Through Isaac and Rebekah, came Jacob [Israel] and Esau.

    Esau [aka: Edom/Idumea, as per Genesis 36:1,8, Isaiah 34:5,6; Ezekiel 35:15, 36:5 KJB]

    Esau married several persons:

    Judith [daughter of Beeri the Hittite, as per Genesis 26:34 KJB]

    Bashemath [daughter of Elon the Hittite, as per Genesis 26:34 KJB]

    Mahalath [aka: Bashemath, daughter of Ishmael, sister of Nebajoth as per Genesis 25:13, 28:9, 36:3 KJB]

    Adah [daughter of Elon the Hittite, as per Genesis 36:2,4 KJB]

    Aholibamah [daughter of Anah, daughter of Zibeon the Hivite, as per Genesis 36:2,5,14 KJB]​

    It was through Esau and Adah, that Eliphaz came, and then from him, Amalek eventually came:

    [Esau + Adah] Amalek was of, Eliphaz [born in Canaan [Genesis 36:5 KJB], who was a son of Esau, 1 Chronicles 1:35 KJB, by Adah [Genesis 36:4 KJB], the daughter of Elon the Hittite [a child of Heth, Genesis 23:10 KJB, a son of Canaan [Genesis 10:15 KJB], a son of Ham [Genesis 10:6 KJB], a son of Noah [Genesis 10:1 KJB], etc], and therefore one of the daughters of Canaan, Genesis 36:2 KJB] by [the concubine, Genesis 36:12 KJB] Timna [1 Chronicles 1:36 KJB], who was the sister of Lotan [Genesis 36:22; 1 Chronicles 1:39 KJB]. Lotan was a child of Seir [Genesis 36:20,21,29; 1 Chronicles 1:38 KJB]. Seir was called the "Horite, who inhabited the land" [Genesis 36:20 KJB], aka "Horims" [Deuteronomy 2:12,22 KJB], and the Horites [cave-dwellers] lived in their mount Seir [Genesis 14:6 KJB], country of Edom [Genesis 32:3 KJB].​

    Therefore, with all of this research and documentation [further Islamic and/or Biblical [KJB] genealogical record unto Adam where requested], my Question 004 is as follows:

    Is it necessary on the part of the believer of Islam, to believe/teach and say that Isma'il [Ishmael] was "the" [singular, definite article] 'Father of the Arab/s' in the face of the presented material, and even though the Qur'an does not say it, or is it perfectly admissible to believe/teach and say that he was possibly an [one of several] ancestor of some [not all] of the Arab[ian] peoples, some of whom would become a great [large] nation [people group]? If not permissible, is there an authentic Islamic source which says so? [There isn't that I am aware of.]

    Thank you for any and all serious consideration.