I've never known a Calvinist...

Hi Frenchy. I've pretty much given up debating on this board, at least for now. The free willers are so lost in their fantasy world that I think we're wasting our time.

But I couldn't help but respond to this. This was my same experience. I can't tell you how many times I should have died, but didn't. I recall telling some of the stories to friends at Gallaudet College, where I was working at about age 30. Their response was that God was protecting me for some reason. I was a hard core atheist at the time, but their statement still got me wondering. Then I got involved with some people who gave Christianity such a bad name that I had even more reason to hate God and Christians.

It was just when I had every reason to conclude from the people around me that Christianity was the worst thing on earth that God "spoke" to me. He proved to me He existed and cared about people and intervened in their lives. Not MY life, but the lives of others. That's important, because He didn't win me over by showing me what He would do for me, but proved He was there by showing me what He did for others. Then, maybe 1-2 years later He confronted me with the issue of Jesus Himself, and forced me to come to terms with who Jesus is.

In retrospect, I believe He kept me alive through many situations where I should have died because He works everything according to His own timing. And even when all I wanted to do was blame all the ills in this world on wacko Christianity and religion in general, He saved me.

For some reason I can't explain, I believed strongly in free will for years. It was only when I tried to write an apologetics piece based on free will that I ran into trouble. I'd write something and it would be clear that it contradicted what the Bible said. After a few weeks of trying, I gave up. I knew something was wrong with my thinking but I didn't know what. But the more I read the Bible, the more it became clear to me that I was simply influenced by C.S. Lewis' description of free will being necessary for God to have people who willingly love Him withoug being robots. I couldn't deny it anymore. Lewis was wrong. The Bible was right. And that started my journey into realizing what the Bible really said.

 

Do you cover your head in church?</font>[/QUOTE]I used to attend a church where women did cover their heads in church. I thought that was pretty cool. Obedience, what a concept. The difference is that:

1. This was NT obedience to what Paul said was a good thing (and because of the Angels -- read the text -- I don't have a clue what that means either), not obedience to OT law in order to be saved.
2. It wasn't legalistic obedience. They weren't required to cover their heads. Not every woman did it, and nobody said a word about it when they didn't.

Edited to add:

There was a funny thing about this church. They *HATED* Calvinism and Calvinists. They knew what I believed, so whenever I attended a Bible study, the never failed to go off on a tangent about how Calvinism is the most evil thing on the planet. They weren't talking TO me, but it was obvious they were talking FOR my so-called "benefit".

Another funny thing. They had a fun game time meeting once, and one of the "games" was a quiz on Bible knowledge. I'm sorry if this sounds like boasting, because I don't mean it that way. But guess who got 100% of the questions right? And guess who didn't even come close?

I don't think it's a coincidence that those who hated Calvinism were still so fuzzy on what the Bible says. Predestination and election is God's word. It *IS* the Gospel, or at least the first part of it. "All the Father gives me WILL come to me, and he who comes to me I will in no way cast out."

I do believe that those who are stuck in free will simply don't know the Bible, or they know some of what it *says* but are so intent on taking credit for their own salvation that they focus on words instead of the message -- words like "whosoever", "any", "all" and "world".

[ March 24, 2006, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

As a Calvinist (or believer in the Doctrines of Grace), I have to distance myself from this statement.

Nicholas, you probably did not intend this, but that kind of statement indicates to me that one must believe in or understand the depths of election and predestination in order to be saved. I do not think the Doctrines of Grace are essential in understanding the Gospel and how to be saved. I think these Doctrines are apart of the solid meat that Paul urges us to partake of in our progress in sanctification.

Peace, brother.

 

Or I should state - that Paul (or the writer of Hebrews, if not Paul) urges us to partake of...

 

You are better than that Helen.

If Christ+human acceptance=regeneration... and Christ is a constant while the absence of human acceptance prevents regeneration then there is no way you can say that human acceptance does not "cause" salvation.

Christ+Holy Spirit regeneration=new creature=repentance + belief= acceptance.

I do. He went out of his way to make it clear when he summarized at the end.

Because the battle between the flesh and renewed spirit was agonizing, tormenting to him.

The one who sets high and holy objectives but must deal with the frustrating inhibitions of this on-going battle with flesh that still wants worldly pleasure.

That points to a weakness in the DE used by the NIV. The NASB and KJV render it "my flesh".

Our flesh continues to battle us daily.

No. I am willing to read what it says and accept... to conform my views to it.

Paul speaks present tense when he describes this battle. You have to superimpose a presupposition to make him mean that he was talking about before his salvation.

Yes. One that recognizes the power by which he wins that battle with the flesh. We don't have to let the flesh win... the way it did before salvation.

Yes. It is and you prove my point better than your own.

Distinctly he speaks of the mind and the flesh.

Victory over the flesh comes through Spirit control and since later he tells us that we are predestined to be conformed to Christ... that victory is already won. This completes the answer to his rhetorical despair "Oh wretched man that I am, who shall save me from the body of this death?"

It begins "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord... describes our condition again as "groaning" then declares that we WILL be conformed (no free will qualifier there) and finally that we cannot be separated from Christ.

I really don't know how you can miss this or deny that we as Christians continue to battle our flesh even when we very much desire to do better.

 

I agree with your conclusions as best I understand them but not this particular.

I don't think God touches man's "free will" per se. He changes his nature. A changed nature will have changed desires.

I don't think He deals with something as superficial as thought processes. I think He miraculously changes who we are from the very core of our person/spirit.

 

Just to add to what Scott said above - verse 22 says:

"For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man."

That does not describe an unsaved person.

And verses 24-25 describe Paul's hope not in himself, but in Christ and our ultimate resurrection to an incorruptible body.

 

An unsaved person might take pleasure or pride in outwardly following [some] of God's laws, but a man who's inward being delights in God's law is a renewed, born again man.

 

As a Calvinist (or believer in the Doctrines of Grace), I have to distance myself from this statement.

Nicholas, you probably did not intend this, but that kind of statement indicates to me that one must believe in or understand the depths of election and predestination in order to be saved. I do not think the Doctrines of Grace are essential in understanding the Gospel and how to be saved. I think these Doctrines are apart of the solid meat that Paul urges us to partake of in our progress in sanctification.

Peace, brother. </font>[/QUOTE]You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying you have to understand or agree with predestination and election. I'm saying that it *IS* the good news -- that all the Father has given Him WILL come to Him. The other half is that it doesn't matter HOW we come to Him. When those who come, come, they will in no way be cast out no matter how they come.

See Spurgeons "The Sum and Substance of All Theology":

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/sum&sub.htm

The above sermon is what I'm saying, not that you have to understand or agree with it in order to be saved. I'm not sure you could possibly have taken that inference from my statement, since my previous post clearly stated that I believed in free will for years after I was saved.

 

npetreley,

I see what you are saying. Sorry for the inference on my part.

 

npetreley, thank you so much for your story. i know there are lots of people who have a similar story. i too should have died 3 times in my life.

the bible says that God even determines when we are going to die!

39:4 LORD, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is; that I may know how frail I am.

39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

[ March 24, 2006, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Frenchy ]

 

I just came across these verses by accident looking for the above verse in psalms. it is just another example of God's word showing he CHOSE US.

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Proverbs 8:22-31
"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there was no depth, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there: when He set a compass upon the face of the depth: When He established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him: Rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. " (Proverbs 8:22-31 KJV)

 

And this is the same man who, in verse 23 speaks of a war within him and in verse 24 declares "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me...?"

I find this in direct and total contrast to the man who is born again and indwelt by the Spirit of God who, in 8:6, is controlled by the Spirit and has a mind of life and peace.
One's mind cannot be at war and peace at the same time. The mind of the sinful man is death, but the mind of the regenerated man is life (8:6). In 7:13 Paul said the law had produced death in him via sin. The following verses describe that inner war within him then, which is why he closes that section with the cry, "Who will rescue me?"

In chapter 8 he opens saying there is now no condemnation because he has been set free from this law of sin and death by Christ.

How much clearer could he be? Chapter 7 describes the inregenerated man and chapter 8 the regenerated man. </font>[/QUOTE]Umm, actually - "What a wretched man..." is in verse 24 which I referenced. And you need to finish the verse, "who will deliver me from this body of death?" He is referring to his ultimate resurrection in an incorruptible (sinless) body. And of course, his answer is Jesus Christ.

Chapter 8 certainly decribes the ideal for every Christian who is walking in obedience and not relying on his own strength (as described in ch. 7). But I can tell you that I don't always have a mind of life and peace in my Christian walk. I still war with this body of death, and that war will continue until I face that last enemy (death) and Christ resurrects me in that last day.

 

I guess that sums it up. You're right - we are different.

 

But there is a war. It may be imperceptible to you (though I doubt it). But the fact that you sin and repent means that there is a war. Galatians 5 is all about this. The Spirit fights against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit. That is the war that unbelievers don't have. That is the war that Paul is describing in Romans 7.

 

I think what you are describing is sanctification and spiritual maturity. What you describe, and what a newer believer describe as far as wrestling with their sin nature would be different.