I've never known a Calvinist...

[Helen]

who didn't think he or she was one of the elect. I was thinking about this while I got dinner in the oven a bit ago.

And so I was asking myself -- are they considering themselves saved because they believe in Calvinism or because they are trusting Christ with their lives?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I know the Calvinists here would never claim that you have to be a Calvinist to be saved. But I am wondering if some simply believe in Calvinism to convince themselves they are saved.

I can criticize 'our side' just as strongly, if you like, for most of you know how vehemently I oppose just saying the 'magic words' of the 'sinner's prayer' and then considering oneself saved.

I think about these things...

 

[James_Newman]

Is the blood of Jesus not assurance enough?

 

[Calvibaptist]

I've never known a believer who didn't think he or she was actually a believer. This is a ridiculous statement you make. Of course someone who is a Calvinistic Christian believes they are one of the elect. They believe they are one of the elect because of the evidence of faith in their lives. If they didn't have that evidence of faith, they wouldn't be considered Calvinists.

I will once again say that I believe in calvinism because I see it taught in the Scriptures. It has nothing to do with my wanting to believe it. In fact, when I first started studying what the Bible really says, without my free-will blinders on, I didn't like it. I didn't like that Romans 9 said that God chooses whom to show mercy to and who to harden. I didn't like that Paul told me that I had not right to question God. BUT, I had to believe it because it was there.

Now, after studying it FROM THE SCRIPTURE, I not only believe it, I love it.

 

[Grasshopper]

My gosh Helen, why the hatred for calvinism and calvinist? How many threads must we go through? I hold to the doctrines of Grace, but I have no problem with those who don't. There are great people on both sides of the issue. It is an important subject but is way overblown in my opinion within our denomination.

Somebody please bring back the Calvinsist board. Please.

I think I'll start 20 threads on why dispies are heretics. Then I'll lump them all together with broad statements.

 

[whatever]

That's a good question. I believe that Christ died for my sins and rose again for my justification. I believe that all who believe that for themselves are elect. Those who do not believe this may or may not be elect, for we do not know what the future holds. Based on this, of course I think I am one of the elect.

If you believe that Christ died for your sins and rose again for your justification, and I'm sure that you do, then I believe that you are one of the elect too.

Does that make me proud of you?

I am Calvinist because I think it best explains what the Bible says about God and man and sin and salvation. If I had to choose one person who most closely represents what I believe it would not be Calvin though. It would probably be Spurgeon.


(By the way, some people call themselves Calvinist and do believe that one must believe just like them to be saved. I don't think they are really Calvinists, though. I think they are nuts.)

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Had a friend in college who thought he was not one of the elect...found out later that he was wrong.

Somehow, Helen, I am thinking this was meant to smear Calvinists as being narcisistic while ignoring the fact that we constantly quote Scripture that supports the doctrine of total depravity, election, grace, and the preservation of the saints. I think that is sad.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Helen]

I apologize, folks. But you see I know plenty of people who are aware they have a choice and have chosen against God. But I don't know one person who thinks Calvinism is right who doesn't think he or she isn't one of the elect. It's an interesting thing, to me, and not a matter of hatred at all, Grasshopper.

But I don't think the subject is overblown at all. You see, I have seen some of the fruits of Calvinism in the lives of people who believe it: a child will be 'given up on' because the parents become convinced the child is not one of the elect; superciliousness on the part of some who believe themselves elect; hopelessness and fearfulness on the part of other parents that one or more of their children might NOT be 'elect.' It seems to me that Calvinism denies the character of the God of the Bible and His love. Because of these things and some others, I deeply want to assure people that God loves them and that they all have the choice, the REAL choice, regarding their relationship with Him. I can't abide denying people the real hope and choice God has given them.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
I can't abide denying people the real hope and choice God has given them.

I can't abide people consistently misrepresenting what I believe, especially after they have been corrected repeatedly. Please do unto us what you would have us do unto you.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Those parents who give up on their children because they don't think they are one of the elect have nothing to do with Calvinism or what is taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches us to witness because God told us to. We are not God and don't know who the elect will and will not be. God knows that. It is our job to preach the Word regardless of what we, in our finite minds, see happening.

As for parents who fear whether or not their children are part of the elect, I am quite sure there are some Arminian parents who are equally afraid their child may choose wrongly and therefore, spend their whole lives in fear trying to convince their children of the truth of the Bible. There is a lot for parents to fear these days. Me? I will simply leave it in God's hands and continue to be obedient to God and his Word. I know it isn't as satisfying as trying to take things in your own hands, but I trust that God's sovereign will is perfect, holy, righteous, and just.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[James_Newman]

Helen has spoken what is in my mind as well.

Can I raise my children to be godly Christians? Or is there no hope if they are not elect? Do I sing songs to them like 'Jesus loves the elect children'? How do I tell my children that God loved me enough to die for my sins, but maybe not yours?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Helen has spoken what is in my mind as well.

Can I raise my children to be godly Christians? Or is there no hope if they are not elect? Do I sing songs to them like 'Jesus loves the elect children'? How do I tell my children that God loved me enough to die for my sins, but maybe not yours?

Tell them that God is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

What if I am not a perfect little Christian and end up leading my little one down the path that rejects Christ? What if I am not convincing enough to change his mind about something that is not easily accepted by natural, sinful mankind? What if I am just not good enough? PSST....stop trying to be good enough and trust Jesus.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Can I raise my children to be godly Christians?

I believe it is your duty.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Or is there no hope if they are not elect?

You have no way of knowing if your children are among the elect or not. So just do your duty.

For what it's worth, I believe my children belong to Christ. But I also know that's up to God, not how I feel about it.

 

[Grasshopper]

OK. If you wish to play this foolish game.

Can I raise my children to be godly Christians?

No, you cannot make your kids Godly. Is this what the non-calvinsit believe? Parents can make their children Godly?

Or is there no hope if they are not elect?

So you and Helen believe that there will be those in Heaven who were of the non-elect?

Do I sing songs to them like 'Jesus loves the elect children'?

Sing what you want, perhaps: “Jesus loves the little Children but will send you to hell if you don’t love Him back”.

How do I tell my children that God loved me enough to die for my sins, but maybe not yours?

How do you tell your child Jesus died for your sins, and paid the price for your sins, but you might also have to pay for them again.

Explain to them that if enough people pray for you God will intervene and alter your free-will. Then again, if you don't have people praying for you your out of luck.

 

[Ransom]

Helen said:

I've never known a Calvinist...who didn't think he or she was one of the elect.

Christians who think they are Christians. Imagine that!

I was thinking about this while I got dinner in the oven a bit ago.

Generally speaking, "thinking about" things doesn't lead you to absurd conclusions when done properly. Your disdain for Calvinism has driven you to irrationality.

 

[Rippon]

I would have to agree Ransom .

 

[Gina B]

Helen: ...-- are they considering themselves saved because they believe in Calvinism or because they are trusting Christ with their lives?

Gina: Neither. They are considering themselves saved because of the sacrifice of the son, and because of the Father's grace, through which they have obtained faith.

Helen: ...I am wondering if some simply believe in Calvinism to convince themselves they are saved.

Gina: I don't understand the reasoning. It would be much easier to just say we're not elect, and therefore we can go enjoy ourselves in the flesh and not worry about it, and then blame it all on God. If a Calvinist was going to carry it to hyper illogical conclusions, this would be the way to go! In fact, one could even say "I am elect, so I do nothing".
Now, if Calvinists were running amuck frolicking in the fields of sin instead of praising God I'd be more likely to understand where you are coming from.
But...the true Christian is not out there serving God because they are trying to gain something, or keep something, or convince themselves of anything. The true Christian is out there doing stuff because the Spirit of Christ moves them to do so. That goes for Calvinists, Arminians, and everyone in between.

Helen: I can criticize 'our side' just as strongly, if you like, for most of you know how vehemently I oppose just saying the 'magic words' of the 'sinner's prayer' and then considering oneself saved.

Gina: That's true. There's extremists on both sides of the coin.

Helen: I think about these things...

Gina: You get five bonus points, because it's a lot more than many people here do. LOL

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
Can I raise my children to be godly Christians?

I believe it is your duty.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Or is there no hope if they are not elect?

You have no way of knowing if your children are among the elect or not. So just do your duty.

For what it's worth, I believe my children belong to Christ. But I also know that's up to God, not how I feel about it. </font>[/QUOTE]I think Helen's point is that under calvins doctrine there is "NO HOPE" for some people,

While no-calvinist believe there "IS HOPE" for "ALL PEOPLE".

The major difference being God's sovereign will dictates only a few will be saved, while God's "LOVE" covers "ALL".

But the question is important, were you saved by "YOUR FAITH" or "God's FAITH",

Your faith is attributed to you

Gods faith is attributed to God, not you.

the first, makes you saved by your faith

the second by God's faith and election, not your faith.

see the point???

Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it (his faith) was accounted to him for righteousness.

 

[Helen]

Whoa! How can God have faith? "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" -- Hebrews 11:1.

Does God need to HOPE for anything? Is there anything He does not see?

Faith requires an object -- you must have faith in something or someone. And it requires that you not know everything involved. Who does God have faith in and what is it He does not know?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
I think Helen's point is that under calvins doctrine there is "NO HOPE" for some people

There is no hope for some people. But that's a deceptive way of putting it, because it implies they want something they can't have. Calvinism doesn't say that. It says they don't want it, and they're not going to get it.