Jesus as the criterion

As I sit here reading this, my guts are literally panged to think there are men in this world who claim to be Christians and use the time honored name of "Baptist" who would compare the sayings of Jesus Christ to an Egyptian myth! An Egyptian myth!

The sayings of Jesus Christ, who is the way, the truth, and the life, the Savior of the world who prefaced His words with....

"Verily, verily, I say unto you"

....and you have the unmitigated audacity to compare His holy words to an Egyptian myth?

The very Jesus of which you speak sent plagues of all sorts on Egypt and killed their firstborns sons and drowned their army in the Red Sea because they held to those lying myths. And yet you compare the words of Christ to an EGYPTIAN MYTH!!!!!

For the love of Christ, for the love of your children, for the love of your own souls, rise up, oh men of God, and drive these brazen infidels out of your churches and out of your associations!

Mark Osgatharp

[ August 10, 2003, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]

 

I am not.

Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem or you are being dishonest.

No sir! You have the unmitigated audacity to twist my words and then try to condemn me with you distortions! If you truly are a follower of the One who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life you will repent of your foolishness and discuss the subject!

I was merely pointing out that the ancient culture in which the Israelites were in captivity were well aware of non-literal histories. That’s it. If you try to make anything more of it you are a liar.

Yeah, whatever…

If I don’t get an apology soon for what I hope is a misunderstanding of my words, it will be apparent that you have no regard for the truth.

 

BaptistBeliever,

With your definition of truth, how do I know if anything you say is true? Maybe you are just speaking "mythologically."

Mark Osgatharp

 

Yes, precisely. (Please note that when I use the words “story” or “stories”, I am not necessarily referring to fiction.)

Yes, I tend to think that most, if not all of them, are historical.

This is also a possibility because of the mystery of the incarnation. Since we do not know how the incarnation “works”, we do not know how much knowledge the Father and the Spirit revealed to Him while He was on earth. For instance Jesus did not know the day or the hour of His return. When He was a child He literally grew in wisdom and stature[/b] and learned obedience through His experiences.

There is certainly a possibility that He did not know whether or not these stories were historical. As far as His purpose on earth goes, I’m not sure that it is essential that they be strictly “literal” in nature. Certainly the parables that Jesus told did not have to be “literally” true for them to be God’s word and useful for God’s purposes and our edification.

That is also a possibility, but it is the least compelling of the possibilities for me. But if it is true, I think it should be noted that Jesus is not intending to deceive, but rather teaching according to the context of those first century Jews.

His deity during the Incarnation does not require omniscience or any of the other common traits of God. Jesus was fully divine and fully human. Because of His human nature, his divine nature was necessarily restricted.

Yes, I tend to agree.

Yes, but it still doesn’t require a literal Abel to be a reference to the first murder.

For what it’s worth, I’m personally a very conservative interpreter of scripture, but I do recognize that there are other views out there that do have some merit. I strongly believe that modern Western humans tend to read their own epistemological presuppositions into ancient texts. The ancient world readily understood the meaning and power of myth to teach “truths”.

By admitting that historical fact, some people are going to automatically jump to the false conclusion that I am alleging that the ancient Hebrew faith is just another ancient myth. (I do not!) But we need to consider that ancient peoples had a very different worldview than we do today.

 

I gave you no definition of truth to analyze…

There are things that are true because they conform to fact and history. There are also truths that are explained through metaphor and story which cannot be adequately explained according to the confines of ordinary technical human language. For instance, God did not give us a technical manual on creation because it is not as important for us to know the method (as if we could comprehend it!) as it is to know the Creator. No matter what your view of the creation narrative(s) in Genesis, I think everyone would concede that God is providing truth even though all of it may not be completely comprehensive and/or literal in nature.

That comes from trust and consistency. If I have demonstrated that I am consistent in what I say, it is likely that you can trust me to be speaking the truth as I understand it. If I constantly twist the words of others and am inconsistent in my positions, you can reasonably assume that I might not be reliable.

I will let you know when I am speaking in myth and metaphor.

I'm still waiting for that apology.

 

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That comes from trust and consistency. If I have demonstrated that I am consistent in what I say, it is likely that you can trust me to be speaking the truth as I understand it. If I constantly twist the words of others and am inconsistent in my positions, you can reasonably assume that I might not be reliable.
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LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR!!!!

 

Amen!

 

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God did not give us a technical manual on creation because it is not as important for us to know the method (as if we could comprehend it!) as it is to know the Creator
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The method.

And God said let their be and.......their was. (Period!)

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There are things that are true because they conform to fact and history.
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The only history and "facts" that we can be 100% assured of are those that are the express word's of God. i.e. The Bible.

Again Let God be true and every man a LIAR!!!!!

 

I think you are confusing two different issues here. Let me sort them out for you:

1.) How does one know Jesus apart from the scripture?

It’s pretty clear that our relationship with Christ is no mediated by the written word of God. Certainly Abraham believed God and it was “reckoned to him as righteousness” without a written text. And in a New Testament example, Paul’s sermon on Mars Hill (Acts 17) did not directly quote from any scripture (although it did quote from a pagan poem) and some people were converted (v.34). Now certainly both Abraham and Paul’s listeners were hearing from God and the message they heard has become part of God’s written word to us, but it certainly reveals that God does not limit Himself to proclamation through the written word.

As believers today, we have an experience with Christ that is usually guided by the written word of God, but we experience Christ in a way that is distinct from the text of the written word of God.

2.) How does one use Jesus are the criterion for understanding the scriptures?

I think this is one of the most misunderstood issues between present and former Southern Baptists today… I think some who advocate this position do not even know what they mean.

This is what I mean:

Jesus Christ is the fullest revelation of God to humankind that there has ever been. If we are called to follow Jesus and be His disciples, then we are called to have Him teach us. Since the Gospels contain the foundational teachings for His disciples (evidenced not only through His earthly ministry, but through the simple fact that the Gospels are the only biblical books written expressly to non-believers as well as believers), they are our starting place for understanding God’s truth. All of the other New Testament writings are to be understood in the context of the teachings of Christ (the foundation of the doctrines of the early church) and the Old Testament is to be understood in the light of the Christ who has fulfilled it.

There is probably more to say about this and I’d be happy to answer any questions you have about my position. If this is going to become an attack fest, I’ll just bow out and let all of you feel superior.

(I really should be spending this time responding to the Ellis thread… I’ll do it tomorrow! )

 

Again, I say "Amen!"

 

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As believers today, we have an experience with Christ that is usually guided by the written word of God, but we experience Christ in a way that is distinct from the text of the written word of God.
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Explain further please.

 

That’s a little difficult to explain, but I’ll take a shot…

Each day as we follow Christ in discipleship, we commune with Him in prayer (sometimes with the written word of God open before us, often when we are doing other things) and we receive guidance from Him for ministry and growth. Furthermore, the spiritual gifts we have been given are exercised in ministry. For instance, we may receive very specific guidance to contact someone we know (or don’t know) to minister to them that is not revealed at all in the pages of scripture – that is, the name of “Sally Meyers”, for instance, is not located anywhere within scripture, but we could certainly be given that instruction through our communion with God.

Our faith is not something that is wholly dependant upon the written word (think of Abraham), but it dependent upon the Spirit of God leading and guiding us. The written word of God is certainly an extremely important part of that experience, but it is not the vital link of our living faith to the living God.

 

Baptist Believer,

I know how Abraham got his instructions. God told him himself directly.

Another Question.

Just exactly how does God give you instruction to minister to certain people during your communion?

 

Baptist Believer,

Also what do you believe the spiritual gifts are that we are given to be exercised in ministry?

 

Exactly! God still speaks to His people today.

Most of the time through Bible study, often during a sermon (although it doesn’t necessarily have a whole lot to do with the pastor’s outline), occasionally I have a very strong inward impression that I need to do something very specific immediately (usually involving someone I know who I later discover is in crisis), and occasionally through the words of another believer who happens to “directly” answer a question I have been privately asking in prayer.

Discerning the voice of God can be difficult, but if you have a heart wanting to obey, God will give you guidance. If you want to hear God simply for the experience of hearing God, you probably won’t hear Him.

There’s an excellent book on the subject called “Hearing God” by Dallas Willard. I suggest you pick it up if you are interested in learning more.

 

Baptist Believer,

What do you mean by a strong inward impression and from whence does it originate?

 

I believe that God has equipped His people with spiritual gifts as outlined by the New Testament scriptures. I believe that all the gifts may be in use today, but often those who claim the more spectacular gifts do not. (The gifts, when properly exercised, do not draw attention to "gifted" person, but to Christ.)

If you need me to give you lists from the scripture, I will.

(Just because I know it will come up - No, I have never spoken in tongues and I have only been in one situation where I think a legitimate gift of tongues may have been in use.)

 

It originates from God. As for explaining it, I really cannot. I just know the voice of the Master. (See John 10:3-5)

If you are looking for a formula or some sort of certainty, you're not going to find it.

The just shall live by faith.

 

Baptist Beliver,

Yes, please tell me specifically what gifts you believe that a Christian person living today should covet after.

When is a person claiming the gift of tounges legitimate and when are they not? Based on scripture please in a current time setting.

 

Covet after? I’d say the greater gifts found in Romans 12 such as prophecy (speaking God’s truth clearly), ministry (literally, helping others), teaching, encouraging, giving, leading and compassion. God has given each of us one or more of these gifts and He wants us to use them in service of others. As far as the “sign” gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 go, God will occasionally use those gifts in us for special purposes, but they are not the everyday norm for most Christians in most circumstances.

I don’t know.

If they are “claiming” the gift of tongues, I strongly suspect that they are not truly gifted with tongues. I’ve been around a fair number of people who have spoken in tongues, but I have never known of any situation where someone has made a point of having the gift of tongues where I thought it was legitimate.

The only time I have ever run across and incident that I thought might be legitimate was on July 4, 1986 on Galveston Island’s Stewart Beach during an interdenominational beach crusade sponsored by a group called Youth Reach Houston. (The group looked for runaway teens and children on the streets of Houston, brought them into a group home to get them away from their lives of drugs and prostitution, shared the gospel with them and worked to reunite them with their families.)

During the crusade, I was walking with my friend over to our church bus to get some containers of ice and additional drinks for the crusade and there was a woman nearby (in a fairly private area between the buses) praying in tongues. It sounded like gibberish to me and I made a comment to my friend when we were out of earshot that “it takes all kinds”. He was surprised at me and asked why I had that attitude. I told him that I didn’t think that praying in gibberish was particularly useful. My friend was surprised and said that he didn’t think she was praying in gibberish. When he walked by he “heard” very clear and specific prayers regarding people and the ministry situation on the beach. We walked by her again on the way back and all I hear was gibberish, but he narrated some very specific things she was “saying” in her prayer that included the names of people we didn’t know (although we met one of them later that afternoon). My friend mentioned that he heard her pray in both the “gibberish” form and the “clear” form at nearly the same time.

That was the first and last time I had that experience as well as the only time he had ever had that experience. I don’t know if it was legitimate or not, but it might have been. If it was legitimate, my friend seemed to be exercising the gift of interpretation.