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Featured Jesus ceased to be God?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SovereignGrace, Jul 2, 2018.

  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I ask that question, not that I or anyone on here believes it, but have any of you come across any who hold to this?

    I recently joined a 'christiian' forum and they did not allow subjects such as OSAS, tongues, rapture, soul sleep, Cal v. Arm, &c , seeing they do gender quite a lot of heat. I actually sorta like that, seeing it does get tiresome debating it.

    So, I decided to start a thread about the Hypostatic Union, thinking we'd be in agreement. WRONG!! One guy, an admin on there, said "Jesus ceased to be God. He was born a man. Became a Spirit-filled man. Gave up his born again Spirit, as God can not take on sin and die on a cross. Then He went to hell in our place and was tormented by demons. At just the right time, He was given His reborn Spirit back, and He defeated Satan, and paraded him all over hell, taking away the keys to death and hell from him." It is not ver batim, but pretty close to that.

    Needless to say, I got banned. I confronted him about his heresies, and showed him that Finis Jennings Dake taught that, and its in his annotated bible(the part where Jesus was born man and at His baptism He became the 'anointed', the Christos, but I don't think he taught that Jesus went to hell, but others with more knowledge can answer that). Then the likes of Kenneth Copeland & Joyce Meyers also teach this. I let him have it with both barrels knowing I was going to be gonzo.

    Again, have any of you ever been confronted with this, either in person or online?
     
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  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    New to me, but the wildest kinds of heresies no longer surprise me these days. :(
    If pastors and teachers no longer teach doctrine, how surprising is it if people start making up their own?
     
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  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I had read Joyce Meyers taught this, but I didn't know Copeland did as well until the other day.
     
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  4. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    There are times when the word heresy becomes a Christianized curse word; it is thrown about so casually and so often.
    If you got thrown off a posting board for trying to teach correct doctrine I'd presume you took a rather haughty tone. ...tone it down next time - (stop being so Calvinistic ;)).

    The problem that was probably being dealt with probably concerned these words:
    What do the words Jesus cried out on the cross mean?

    About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?”,
    Matthew 27:46 (CSB)
    I came across this quote not so long ago - it reminded me that even respected bible teachers and scholars can use humility in teaching a difficult concept.

    The meaning of the words in the mouth of Jesus, the Son of God, is something about which the reader and the exegete can only wonder. It may fairly be said that it was whatever occurred here—this breach with his Father (although the prayer avoids this intimate term, using simply “God”)—and not the excruciating pain or ignominious death of crucifixion that Jesus dreaded above all else. Jesus clearly feels abandoned (and is abandoned by God…) and articulates his feeling with words from Ps 22:1. No doubt his heart took courage from the words of scripture, for Ps 22 is not only a psalm of lament but simultaneously also a psalm of trust... …although other writers of the NT, whose task is interpretation, never refer to the words, it is not difficult to see the direct relevance of passages such as Rom 3:25; 2 Cor 5:21; Col 1:20; Heb 5:7–10; 7:27; 9:11–14. Jesus as the sin-bearing sacrifice (cf. 1:21; 20:28; 26:28) must endure the temporary abandonment of his Father, i.e., separation from God. Horrible as this would be for any creature of God, when it concerns one who is uniquely the Son of God (cf. 1:23; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16; 26:63–64), … it is impossible to assess what this may have meant to Jesus. This is one of the most impenetrable mysteries of the entire Gospel narrative.

    Donald A. Hagner, Matthew 14–28, vol. 33B, Word Biblical Commentary (Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1998), 844–845.​

    Did Jesus cease to be God for even a moment? of course not, fundamentally it would negate the power of the cross.
    Can we fully understand what happened there? probably not.

    Rob
     
    #4 Deacon, Jul 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  5. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I didn't use my Calvinism when I confronted him. I carefully used the bible when I confronted him.
     
  6. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes you need to use the blunt end of the sword. :)

    Rob
     
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  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The OP definitely described a gosh darned heresy.
     
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  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Here it is, it was from my blog...


    but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.[Philippians 2:7,8]

    Recently I joined a ’Christian’ forum that did not want members talking about subjects such as Calvinism vs. Arminianism, OSAS, manifestation of tongues, soul sleep, rapture, among other teachings as they tend to bring a lot of heat. I kinda liked that, seeing it gets tiresome debating the same things over and over again. So, I thought I would start a thread about the Hypostatic Union, thinking we’d be in agreement. Boy was I wrong. A member on there stated “The Christ ceased being God. Was born a man, became a Spirit-filled man. Gave up His born-again Spirit pre-crucifxion as God could not take sin upon Himself or go to the cross. He then went to hell in our place. At just the right time, God placed His Spirit back in the Christ.” Well, I thought I would just leave it there and just not go back, but my love of Him would not allow me to set idly by and say nothing. I posted a rebuke, they deleted my post and banned me. I knew this would be the cowardly route they would go, so I copied and pasted it to another site for safe keeping. Here it is en toto.


    I had honestly thought I would never post here again, but there has been some things said on here that I can not let go unchallenged.


    There has been some rank heresies spouted on here that need addressed.


    At no time did Jesus cease to be God, seeing that He was born Immanuel/Emmanuel, which means ‘God with us'[Isaiah 7:15 & Matthew 1:23]. God is immutable[Hebrews 6:18], and that means He changes not. He is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end[Revelation 1:8].


    He was not born as a man who later on became a Spirit-filled man. That heresy was started by Finis Jennings Dake, creator of the Dake Annotated Reference bible. He said ”who became the Christ or the “Anointed one” 30 years after he was born of Mary.” He never became the Christ, but was born the Christ. As the angel told Joseph in Matthew 1:20,21 ”Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” The Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was born 100% God and 100% man. Dake held to the view that Jesus was a good, moral man, who God chose to indwell with the Holy Spirit and then He became the Christ. Utter heresy. Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, not that He became the Son at His baptism in Matthew 3:16,17. Here’s another quote from Finis Jennings Dake “Gr. Christos, ‘Anointed.’ – Used in N.T. 577 times. Like the name “Jesus” it has no reference to deity, but to the humanity of the Son of God, who became the Christ or the “Anointed One” 30 years after He was born of Mary. God “made” Him both Lord and Christ. The Heb. Is ‘Messiah’.” (Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible, Finis Jennings Dake, Lawrenceville, Georgia, New Testament, p. 1.) Again, neither of those heretical quotes by Dake have merit with the word of God.


    Then another rank heresy spouted on here is that the Christ had to do away with His deity in order to die upon the cross. Another heresy that ppl took and ran with. Paul Crouch, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Sr.(probably Jr., too), and Joyce Meyers all teach/taught this, that Jesus had to ceased being God to die, and when He died, he went to hell. UTTER HERESY. He said while upon the cross, ”Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.”[Luke 23:46] There is no way the Christ was born solely a man, and then 30 years later became the Christ, then ~ 3.5 years later ceased being God, died and went to hell.


    Another Dake quote…

    ”He is a person with a personal spirit body, a personal soul, and a personal spirit, like that of angels, and like that of man except His body is out of spirit substance instead of flesh and bones. He has a personal spirit body; shape; form; image and likeness of a man. He has bodily parts such as, back parts, heart, hands and fingers, mouth, lips and tongue, feet, eyes, ears, hair, head, face, arms, loins, and other bodily parts. He has bodily presence and goes from place to place in a body like all other persons. “He has a voice; breath; and countenance. He wears clothes; eats; rests; dwells in a mansion and in a city located on a material planet called Heaven; sits on a throne; walks; rides; engages in other activities.” (ibid.,P.96-97)


    He says that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit each have personal Spirit body. FALSE! God is Spirit. He had no idea how to use anthropomorphic language. It also says of God in David’s writings ”He will cover you with His pinions, and under His wings you may seek refuge. His faithfulness is a shield and a bulwark.”[Psalm 91:4] By using Dake’s logic, we can say that God has bird’s wings, too.


    Even another Dakeism…


    ”Here we have another proof that God receives knowledge of true conditions and becomes acquainted with existing facts. This plainly teaches that God, as well as men and angels, is limited to one place as far as the body is concerned. The doctrine of omnipresence of God can be proved, but not His omnibody. In His body He goes from place to place like other persons. Abraham stood yet before the bodily presence of God, but not before the bodily presence of the 2 angels because they went to Sodom and were no longer bodily present.” (ibid., Old Testament, p. 15.)


    Here is denying God’s omniscience. Jesus emptied Himself, but that does not mean that He ceased to be God, or to even lay aside His attributes, but that He ceased to manifest them. He was 12 years old when He told His mother ”Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?”[Luke 2:49] He was calling God His Father ~ 18 years before He supposedly’ became a Spirit-filled man.


    And one last goodie from Dake…


    “Christ emptied Himself of His authority in heaven and in earth, which was given back to Him after the resurrection.” “Christ emptied Himself of His divine attributes and outward powers that He had with the Father from eternity. He had no power to do miracles until He received the Holy Spirit in all fullness. He could do nothing of Himself in all His earthly life. He attributed all His works, doctrines, powers, etc. to the Father through the anointing of the Holy Spirit.” “Isaiah speaks of the Messiah being born without knowledge enough to know to refuse the evil and choose the good.” “Isaiah predicted that the Messiah would be born without the tongue of the learned, without knowing how to speak a word in season to help any soul, and that He would be wakened day by day to increase in knowledge and wisdom.” “He did not claim the attributes of God, but only the anointing of the Spirit to do His works.” (Ibid.,NT.P, 218)


    Jesus never emptied Himself of His deity, neither did He empty Himself of His attributes, nor did He cease to be God before He went to the cross. Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, Joyce Meyers all taught these heresies. They got them from Finis Jennings Dake, who was a false teacher, just as Copeland, Meyers, Crouch, Hagin, Sr., are also false teachers.


    It’s good to know that some who claim to have the mind of Christ, in the very next sentence blasphemed God.


    This will be my lost post on this site. Goodbye.


    So as you can tell, I spared nothing in rebuking these heretics. He said he had the mind of Christ and then blasphemed God in the very next sentence by saying He ceased to be God, was born a man, became Spirit-filled man, gave up His born-again Spirit, seeing God could not take sin upon Himself or die on a cross. Then he doubled down and said the Christ went to hell in our place!?!?!?


    Joyce Meyers, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, Kenneth Hagin, Sr., all advocate(d) these rank heresies. They took the heresies of Finis Jennings Dake and ran with them.


    In Luke 2, Simeon was shown by the Holy Spirit, he would not die until he saw the Lord’s Christ. Simeon knew when He was a wee baby He was the Christ.


    Forgive me, dear reader, for some things I have said 2-3 times. I just want to bring these heresies to light, as the light is what exposes sinful ppl’s sin[John 3:20].


    I fear for those on that site(his wife is also a member and advocates these same heresies) and others around the world who have swallowed these heresies hook, line & sinker. They need our pity & prayers, that God will open their eyes to these rank heresies. I will leave you with this passage…


    But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.[2 Peter 2:1-3]


    God, please be merciful to them and open their eyes is my prayer. In the name of Jesus. Amen!
     
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That view is quite prominent among wof/Charasmatic chaos group, as they have defined Jesus as being someone who was born again, and just applied more of the laws of the Kingdom, like he knew of and used the Force better!
    I have also met baptists who talk /described jesus as just fully walking in the Spirit, like He never relied upon being God at all, so would be like a functional denial!Like he was God, then become fully Man, and then Back to being God.
     
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  10. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    May I suggest you allow your friends at Answers in Genesis help you gain a much better grasp of the doctrine of the Incarnation than you seem to display here?

    From their site, which they offer without challenge or correction:

    "But how did Jesus, as a true human, not fall into sin? Some believe it was because of the bond between His divine and human nature.8 On the other hand, theologian Bruce Ware believes that"

    The answer Scripture suggests to us is this: Jesus did not sin, not because his divine nature overpowered his human nature, keeping him from sinning, but because he utilized all of the resources given to him in his humanity. He loved and meditated on God’s Word . . . he prayed to his Father; he trusted in the wisdom and rightness of his Father’s will and Word; and, very significantly, he relied on the supernatural power of the Spirit to strengthen him to do all that he was called upon to do.9
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    It was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to sin, as he was and is God incarnate, and He never ceased to be fully God while here as fully man.
     
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  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Jesus did not sin because He is God.
     
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  13. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Are you two accusing Answers in Genesis of spreading false teaching?
     
  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Are you saying the Christ could have sinned? If AiG is saying that, then they are spreading a false gospel.
     
  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    A lot of Pentecostals say they believe that. I believe Jesus was still God, but ministered as The Son Of Man filled with The Spirit.
     
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    He was both man and God. I don’t think any of us can fully grasp that. I think it goes deeper than we can swim.

    Some think that He could do no miracles pre-baptism. Not so. He chose to not display His attributes before then. We have His birth, His being presented to Simeon, then being around 12, then it picks up with Him being around 30. The baptism was confirmation that He was indeed the prophesied Messiah.
     
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  17. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    If you read my post, then you should know I quoted straight from AiG. Those were not my words. I then got two quite reactionary replies. If yours was aimed at my post, why question me? Again, I was quoting AiG. If you are not sure about AiG, then why not check it out? If you cannot tell, then perhaps a reactionary response was not the right way to approach it.
     
  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Let’s not derail the thread with rabbit trails. The topic of the OP is not anything AiG said, but “have any on here ever been confronted with the doctrine that says Jesus ceased to be God”?
     
  19. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    I cited AiG, because I thought Y1 had a lot of respect for them. I could have been wrong. It was a direct response to his post, but has great bearing on the subject of the thread. In one post you said,
    This is the right place to start (and end), and shows some humility, humility that we all need more of. What I see happening far too often is that someone goes too far toward one extreme, and the favored “solution” is for someone else to then go too far toward another. Overemphasis one way or another can lead to heresy and resolves nothing.
     
  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    But that’s not the subject of the OP. I was wondering if any on here has been confronted with the topic in the OP and how did they handle it.

    If you want to discuss the HU, make a thread and I will jump in.
     
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