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Jesus Christ is THE CREATOR In Isaiah

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 11, 2024.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ is THE CREATOR In Isaiah

    “And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit” (The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text, A New Translation. The Jewish Publication Society of America. 5677-1917)

    These words are from Isaiah chapter 48, verse 16, where the Speaker is not God the Father. In the Hebrew text, it does not read, “Lord God”, but, “Adonai YHWH”, Literally, “The Lord Yahweh”. Neither is the Speaker the Holy Spirit, as He is here the Second “object” in the Hebrew, Who is “Sent”, by “Adonai YHWH”.

    Obviously the early Jews did not like this passage, as it clearly shows that there is more than One Person Who is YHWH. This Can be seen in The Targum of Jonathan Ben Uzie, which dates from around the 1st century AD:

    “The prophet saith: And now the Lord God and His Word, hath sent me” (C W H Pauli; The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah, pp.166-167)

    These Targums are paraphrases, where some of the content is not what the Hebrew actually says. There is no Hebrew manuscripts that have “The prophet saith”, which has been added to try to remove any reference to another Person Who is YHWH. Though they have rightly said that “ME” refers to “His Word”, Who is the Lord Jesus Christ, as is clear from John 1:1, etc.

    The reading of the ending of this verse, in Bible Versions like the King James, is wrong;

    “and now the Lord God and his Spirit hath sent me” (1611)

    This makes two subjects, “the Lord God”, and “his Spirit”, and one object, “me”, the Speaker. In the Hebrew the word order is, “wə‘atâ ’ăḏōnāy yəhweh šəlāḥanî wərûḥwō” (And now the Adonay YHWH has sent Me and His Spirit), which is, one subject “the Lord God”, and two objects, “His Spirit” and the Speaker. This is same word order in the Greek Old Testament (LXX), and the Latin Vulgate. The same is in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which date from the 1st century BC

    “And now the Lord God has sent me and his spirit” (The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint and Eugene Ulrich)

    Further, we have the Hebrew verb here, “šə·lā·ḥa·nî”, which is masculine singular, “has sent”, which cannot mean two subjects.

    It is very clear from the context verse 16 is, that the Speaker has to be YHWH, and no one who is a lesser person.

    The words in this verse are like those found in verse 3, “I have declared the former things from the beginning”, and verse 5, “I have even from the beginning declared it to you”. In verse 12 and 13 the Speaker says, “Listen to Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He, I am the First, I also am the Last. My hand has also laid the foundation of the earth”. Language that can hardly be use by Isaiah, or any other human being! Then, in verse 15 we read, “I, even I have spoken, yes, and I have called him”. In the very next verse, we read, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go”. As the Speaker of verse 16 here continues, it is clear that He is Yahweh, Who is Speaking, and not the Prophet Isaiah. This same Speaker also says, “Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The Lord has called Me from the womb” (49:1). In verse 5 He is called “His Servant”, which clearly can only refer to Jesus Christ. None of these things could have been said by the Prophet Isaiah.

    It is clear that the Speaker is Jesus Christ, The One Who was SENT by God the Father, and Who from all eternity, is YHWH, and EQUAL with the Father.

    In Isaiah 44:6, we read of the Father: “This is what Yahweh, the King of Israel, and His Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies, says: “I am the First, and I am the Last; and besides Me there is no God”. Jesus says the same of Himself in 48:12. This means that Jesus Christ is ETERNAL, exactly as the Father is! The Father could never have Created Jesus Christ.

    In Isaiah 40:22, we read of the Father, “It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in”. In 48:13, Jesus says that He Created the entire Universe.

    In this chapter in the Prophet Isaiah, we have Three distinct Persons, One Whom is the SENDER, and the Two Who are SENT by Him.

    In the Book of the Prophet Zechariah, we read in Chapter 2, verses 6-12, where the Speaker is also Yahweh, and says that Another Person, “Yahweh of the Armies”, is Sending Him.

    Verses 11 and 12, “for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh...and you will know that Yahweh of armies has sent Me to you”

    Here we have in the Jewish Old Testament, clear teaching that the God of the Holy Bible is not One Person. There are Two in these passages Who are YHWH, the Father and Jesus Christ.

    We also have in the Book of Isaiah, Jesus Christ is called, “’êl Gibbôr”, in 9:6; and the Father is also called “’êl Gibbôr”, in 10:21, in both places the meaning is exactly the same, MIGHTY GOD (also in Jeremiah 32:18). This reading is also in the New World Translation, as published by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do admit that Jesus Christ is “Mighty God”, as the Father is!

    The Teaching of the Trinity, One Godhead and Three distinct equal Persons, is very clear in the Old Testament, and has nothing to do with the Christian Church of “inventing” this Doctrine!
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That "me" in that text is Isaiah. "And now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit."
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Did you read what this Person says in the verses before? NO human can speak these things!
     
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    look ate the whole verse

    Come near to Me, listen to this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

    Does this refer to Isaiah?
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What I quoted from the Jewish Publication Society 1917 text, "And now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit.". The "me" is Isaiah. Now my understanding is the Lord GOD to be the preincarnate Lord Jesus Christ. [John 12:41, Isaiah 6:5. Per John 1:18]
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the NASB has the "Me" to be God.
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    If the ME is GOD then who is the Adonay YHWH
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15979

    The Jewish translation Isaiah 48:16,

    Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit.

     
    #8 37818, Feb 11, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2024
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Silly question.
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    How can it be a silly question?

    it is you who has said that the Person Speaking in Isaiah 48:16, is the Prophet Isaiah. And then you say that the "Me" refers to God, is this the Father? If so, then Who is the "Adonay YHWH", Who sends both the Speaker and His Spirit?
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Jewish translation used "me" to refer to Isaiah. The evangelical translations used "Me" to refer to God. I think it to be silly to need to ask if God is the Lord GOD speaking where "Me" is used for God.

    KJV, Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Do you know any Hebrew grammar?
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Of course not.

    All I do know, the Lord GOD in the OT is our pre incarnate Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:3.

    My Jewish translations have of Isaiah 48:16 translate "me" and my NASB and NKJV translate as "Me." Does not change the preincarnate deity of Christ!
     
    #13 37818, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Then let me tell you if you will. The KJV translation of the final sentence in Isaiah 48.16 is grammatically wrong

    The ME in the verse is the Speaker in context is Jesus Christ
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    LOL.
    You know no such thing. The NKJV uses "Me." The JPS "me."
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 48:16,

    KJV, Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

    NKJV, “Come near to Me, hear this:
    I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
    From the time that it was, I was there.
    And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
    Have sent Me.”

    JPS 1917, Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; From the time that it was, there am I; And now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit.
     
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