1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jesus is the Reason for Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Humble Disciple, Jul 11, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are numerous Bible verses and quotations from the church fathers supporting the five points of Calvinism. The doctrines of grace are simply a convenient way of articulating what’s already revealed in the Bible.

    It’s only called “Calvinism” because John Calvin popularized the doctrines of grace, he did not originate them. It’s the same doctrines that Augustine taught against Pelagius and Luther taught against Rome.

    Most importantly, since Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), we should look to the words of Jesus and see if they support the doctrines of grace.

    Calvinism is important to me because it's supported by the Bible, and also because of its great benefits. I have never felt more loved by Jesus in my entire life, and I've never felt more secure in my salvation. I am so thankful, that it makes me want to live in love and obedience to Jesus.

    To believe that Jesus chose me from before the foundation of the world, based on no merit on my part whatsoever, not even my free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve, and that He will safely lead me to ultimate salvation and never abandon me, no matter how many times I might fall, is very liberating and also very humbling.

    Here are just a few verses from the Gospels:

    Total Depravity

    Matthew 7:18
    A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

    Matthew 15:19
    For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

    Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

    John 3:6
    That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    John 3:19
    And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

    John 8:34
    Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

    John 8:44
    You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

    Unconditional Election

    Matthew 11:27
    All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

    Matthew 22:14
    For many are called, but few are chosen.

    John 6:65
    And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

    John 15:16
    You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

    John 15:19
    If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

    Limited Atonement

    Matthew 1:21
    And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

    John 11
    11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
    26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep

    John 17:9
    I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

    Irresistible (Enabling, Efficacious) Grace

    Matthew 19
    25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
    26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


    John 3:8
    The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

    John 6
    37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
    44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (Greek helkó, "to drag") him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

    John 10:16
    And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

    Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints

    John 5:24
    Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

    John 6
    35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
    37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [a]by no means cast out.

    John 10
    27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
    28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
    29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

    [​IMG]
     
    #1 Humble Disciple, Jul 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Eternal Preterition

    John 17:12
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    Matthew 26:24
    The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.

    More Limited Atonement

    John 11
    49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,
    50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.”
    51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
    52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

    John 15
    13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends

    Irresistible grace doesn’t mean that God’s elect will never rebel, but that God’s grace is powerful enough to overcome the elect’s rebellion, transform their wills and desires, and lead them to ultimate salvation. John Newton, the songwriter of "Amazing Grace" was a Calvinist.

    The preaching of the Gospel is the means God has ordained to awaken faith in His elect. (Matthew 28:19) Some of the greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.

     
    #2 Humble Disciple, Jul 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Calvinism doesn’t need to be defended. It just needs to be clearly articulated, directly from the Bible, and whoever has ears to hear will hear it:
    What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism? | GotQuestions.org


    There’s no point to Calvinism if it can’t be articulated from the Bible. There are numerous passages of scripture supporting the five points of Calvinism, and whoever has ears to hear, let them hear. Matthew 11:15, Matthew 13:9, Matthew 13:43, Mark 4:9, Luke 8:8, Luke 14:35

    I’m not here to convince non-Calvinists that they must follow Calvinism. I just want them to at least understand its Biblical and historical foundations, so that they will be less likely to condemn Calvinism for something that it isn’t.

    If you are an Arminian who loves Jesus, that's awesome. As the slogan of the Reformation goes, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I meant to quote John 10:11, not 11:11.

     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If it’s entirely God’s choice whom to save, then no one is beyond God’s power to save, no matter how bad things might seem. Like Jonah in the whale and Paul on the Damascus road, nothing can thwart God’s will to save. (Matthew 19:26)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was surprised to find how many scriptural supports for the five points of Calvinism one could find just in the Gospels. The Gospel of John especially contains verses in support of all five points of Calvinism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Basically this comes down to does God need out permission/assistance to save us or not?
     
  8. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Unconditional Election

    John 13:18
    I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’
     
  9. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 13:18 is probably the hardest saying of Jesus in support of unconditional election. Judas betrayed Jesus because he was never really chosen in the first place.

    This goes against every standard of human fairness. I don't want people to believe it if it makes them think less of Jesus.
     
  10. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints

    John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    John 18
    8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.”
    9 This happened so that the words the had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”
     
  11. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    2,833
    Likes Received:
    533
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Thank you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Soli Deo gloria.
     
  13. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If your apartment building was burning down, and a firefighter died while saving you but not your neighbor, what would your proper response be?

    Should you gripe and grumble about how unfair it was that the firefighter gave up his life for you, but not your neighbor? Or should you be thankful for his sacrifice?

    If you are among God’s elect, then Jesus suffered the full weight of His wrath in payment of your sins. He willingly died so that you’d have eternal life. There was no way, in your spiritual deadness, that you could save yourself.

    There is nothing unfair about God’s sovereignty in election.(Romans 9:21) No one who desires to be saved will be turned away. (John 6:37) If you sincerely care about your salvation, that’s a sign you are among God’s elect.

    It’s profoundly humbling to believe that God chose you, irrespective of any merit on your part whatsoever, not even your free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve, and the proper response is love and obedience. (John 6:44)

    If you truly care about the salvation of the lost, you should support evangelism, since the preaching of the Gospel is the means God has ordained to awaken faith in His elect. Some of the greatest missionaries have been Calvinists.

     
  14. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Unconditional Election

    Matthew 24
    22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
    31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13
    20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
    27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
     
  15. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Matthew 3:9 beautifully illustrates the doctrine of irresistible grace. If God can raise up children of Abraham from stones, then He can unfailingly turn the hearts of His elect ones from hearts of stone to hearts of flesh.

    The story of the two men on the Emmaus road also beautifully illustrates irresistible grace:

    Luke 24
    16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.
    31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.
    45 And He opened up their minds, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

    Irresistible grace is the working of the Holy Spirit in our minds and hears:

    John 14:26
    But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

    John 15:26
    But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

    John 16
    13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
    14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
     
    #15 Humble Disciple, Jul 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  16. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is my updated scripture list for the five points of Calvinism, just from the four Gospels:

    Total Depravity (Total Inability)

    Matthew 7:18
    A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

    Matthew 15:19
    For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

    Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

    John 3:6
    That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    John 3:19
    And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

    John 8:34
    Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

    John 8:44
    You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

    Unconditional Election

    Matthew 11:27
    All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

    Matthew 22:14
    For many are called, but few are chosen.

    Matthew 24
    22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
    31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13
    20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
    27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

    John 6
    64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
    65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

    John 8:47
    Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.

    John 13:18
    I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’

    John 15:16
    You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

    John 15:19
    If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

    John 17:12
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    Matthew 26:24
    The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.

    Limited Atonement (Definite Atonement, Particular Redemption)

    Matthew 1:21
    And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

    Matthew 26:28
    For this is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Luke 1:68
    Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited and redeemed His people

    John 10
    11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
    26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep

    John 11
    49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,
    50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.”
    51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
    52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

    John 15
    13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends

    John 17:9
    I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

    Irresistible (Enabling, Efficacious) Grace

    Matthew 3:9
    and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children of Abraham from these stones.

    Matthew 19
    25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
    26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Luke 24
    16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.
    31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.
    45 And He opened up their minds, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

    John 1
    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [a]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
    13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    John 3:8
    The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

    John 5
    21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    John 6
    37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
    44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (Greek helkó, "to drag") him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
    63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    John 10:16
    And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

    John 14:26
    But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

    John 15:26
    But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

    John 16
    8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
    13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
    14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

    Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints

    John 5:24
    Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

    John 6
    35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
    37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
    39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

    John 10
    27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
    28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
    29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

    John 17:12
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    John 18
    8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.”
    9 This happened so that the words the had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,384
    Likes Received:
    944
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian.

    I won't go into the reasons that I reject Calvinism [it will serve no purpose], but I do wish to say that I reject Arminianism as they believe you can lose your salvation.

    Just want you to know there are more than two choices. I
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How does one have preservation of the saints without unconditional election and irresistible (enabling) grace? It seems like having your cake and eating it to.

    On what basis would you expect to never lose your salvation? Unless it's God's enabling grace preserving your salvation, what is?
     
  19. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    34
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not speaking for anyone else but me but I think Scarlett O has said it well that discussion on the matter will serve no purpose. I feel basically the same way about the matter.
     
  20. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have no intent to convert other people to Calvinism. I took philosophy and religion classes in college, and one can discuss things to their logical conclusions without needing to force someone to the other side.

    [​IMG]
    I have more interest in understanding why people believe what they believe than convincing them to be on my side. Oftentimes, people reject certain points of Calvinism without fully understanding or being able to articulate why.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...