Featured Jesus on the Rapture of the Chruch

And that framework was first developed by John Nelson Darby, which he claims was revealed to him after reading Isaiah 32.

 

I know your arguments. I could make your arguments. I'm not convinced. You have done a great job proving pre mill but pre trib I don't think can be proved with Scripture unless one does a lot of reading into it.

 

That is true

 

No you will not find the dispensational frame work prior to Darby. You can find the Pre-Mill frame work in the early church but not the dispensational one. Proving that the early church father's taught ore-Mill view does not translate into them teaching the dispensation pre trib view.

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Well said! They tried to make Isaac Watts a pre-trib-dispensationalist but their link rose up and bit them! {Was Isaac Watts a Pre-Trib-Dispensationalist?}

 

Oh well, this debate is like a weather cast report I heard in Kansas when I was going on a fishing trip.

"I guess we'll just have to wait and find out".

HankD

 

Well, most Christians are dispensational whether they know it or not.

Test:

Do you eat ham, bacon, rabbit, lobster...?
Do you go to church on Sunday or the Sabbath?

Why?

HankD

 

Well a conventional theologian could turn that around and say that most Christian's are Conventional whether they know that or not.
Test:
Do you eat bacon, and do you go to church on Saturday or Sunday.

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The Spirit of God will cease His work as the restrainer of sin and the demonic forces of hell will come forth but the Spirit will indeed be here during the tribulation.

At very least the Spirit of God is omnipresent and nowhere can it be found (or that I can find) that He will cease enlightening fallen mankind as to their need to be saved.

HankD

 

Yes - indeed I do because in this dispensation of grace God is dealing with us by a different rule of economy, we are under grace and led of the Spirit not the Law of Moses.

I do go to church on Sunday because I am not under the dispensation of Law but the dispensation of grace.

Besides the Law only allows circumcised Jews to officiate and keep the sabbath and mikvah-ed women to keep the Sabbath. Ask any Hasidic Jew.

Under the Law, Gentiles are NOT allowed to keep the Sabbath even if they wanted to do so (well, we are free to go through the motions).


HankD

 

I am a part of the dispensation camp (although I may be arguing myself out of it) but your test is not legitimate. People in the Covenant Theology camp do not follow the Mosaic laws any more then we do and their theology explains why just like ours does. That's why I said they could turn it around on us.

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This passage has nothing to do with the so-called-pre-trib-"snatching} away of the Church. Rather it is a picture of the return of Jesus Christ. Consider the following:

Matthew 25:10-13
10. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The message is that after the Return of Jesus Christ the door to Salvation is shut!

The passage in the OP clearly shows that those who belong to Jesus Christ will be ready when HE returns and after that the Door to Salvation is Closed. The two parables that follow in Matthew 25 teach the same truth. Then we come to a more explicit account of the return of Jesus Christ and a graphic picture of the White Throne Judgment {Revelation 20:11-15} in verses 31-46, sometimes called the judgment of the sheep and goats!.

Consider the following Scripture about the return of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 9:28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The "Salvation" of the above passage can only mean the Glorification of all those who were redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

John Gill writes about the passage from Hebrews:

 

Hank,

That has nothing to do with dispensations. That has to do with the message Peter received in a vision!

 

You missed the point bw, I said "whether you know it or not" - you are making a dispensational decision to eat and do those things the law forbids or disallows.

Now, why do you? Do you call it a Covenant change?
If so, how is that any different than a dispensational change?

"dispensation" is a bona fide biblical word as is covenant:

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The dispensation of grace is the dispensation whereby the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.

In this dispensation we are freed from the responsibility of keeping the law of Moses (read Acts 15 the whole chapter).

Actually dispensationalism could be called covenantalism (with a lower case c). The "congregation of God" is no longer under the law (the mosaic covenant) but under grace (the covenant of jesus Christ) and in fact some Bibles are divided that way The Old Covenant - The New Covenant.

Covenant Theology however distinguishes between a covenant of works and a covenant of grace (which is what my research has shown and not so far off base as far as I am concerned). If not then define Covenant Theology so we can be on the same page.

I do object to their Reformed Theology, being a former Catholic and now a Baptist I would be prefer to be called a Separatist (I suppose) as in my view the Reformation did not go far enough but left us in some of the grave clothes of Rome.

We have come full circle and have dug ourselves into a theological hole in which no two Christian people on earth can have unblemished fellowship due to the permutations of interpretations of our systematic theologies.

HankD

 

Read Acts 15, the whole chapter.

The Gospel had to go out to the Gentiles so we have been freed from the law of Moses (the mosaic covenant or the dispensation of the Law, choose your own nomenclature).

It would have been difficult to keep the Great Commission and carry a Kosher Kitchen though Asia Minor, Africa, and Europe and the outermost habitats of man.

So call it covenantalism (with a lower case "c"). Dispensationalism is a way of interpretation in order to explain the how and why of the differences God has dealt with mankind over the ages. He Himself has not changed but has changed the rules by which we are to live.

Personally, I don't like the term dispensationalism, frankly it has attracted more of its share of colorful characters than it deserves. To deny that the elements of dispensationalism go back to the early church is not accurate.
True as a systematic theology it has been compiled from the 16th century onward.

But so has calvinism though the doctrines of grace preceded John Calvin.

Just an after thought (though its the first and only thought)

the Second Coming is all about Jesus and like the old hymn says

When we see Jesus coming in glory,
When He comes from His home in the sky,
Then we shall meet Him in that bright mansion,
We'll understand it all by and by.

W.B Stevens, Farther Along

We have let the evil one rob us of the fellowship around this precious truth.

HankD

 

Was the Holy Spirit "in the earth" prior to the Day of Pentecost? In what way was the Holy Spirit "different" in relation to believers following Pentecost?
Beameup is not saying that the Holy Spirit will be totally absent during the Tribulation. Many here seem quick to "put words in my mouth" with their accusations.
Those "sealed" during the Tribulation are sealed in their foreheads and they are genetically pure Hebrews, not the "body of Christ".
Their task is to bring the Gospel of the Kingdom to the uttermost parts of the earth, using supernatural knowledge of every language/dialect. As well, they will have supernatural instant transport as was the case with Phillip & Ethiopian.
Thus, the "harvest" of souls during the first half of the Tribulation will far exceed the number of souls saved in the last 2,000 years. However, faith in Messiah will mean certain death or renunciation. John mentions these "souls" under the altar in Revelation as being those from the Tribulation.