1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jesus THE Creator - Part 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    1,700
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In Colossians chapter 1, the Apostle Paul says this about Jesus Christ, and Creation:

    "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him" (16).

    The words, “by Him”, do not represent the Greek. Here the preposition is, “en” (in, within). In Homer it is used for, “the power is in you”, thus showing that “The Creation”, has its “source” in the Lord Jesus Christ. In Acts 17:28, this same preposition used for God, where we read, that, "in (en ) Him we live and move and have our being". That is, our very existence depends on God. John in his Gospel says the same of Jesus, “in (en ) Him was life” (1:4), that is, the “source” of all life, is from the Lord Jesus Christ!

    Paul also says in this passage in Colossians, “All things were created through Him (dia, same used in Romans 11:36 for Creation by God) and for (eis) Him". The preposition, dia, is here used as the intermediate and sustaining agent; and eis, the ultimate goal for Creation. There can be no doubt that this passage in Colossians, tells us, that, not only is Jesus Christ THE Creator of the entire universe, “all things” (ta panta), but, that the Jesus also sustains Creation, but that all of it depends on Him! As Paul goes on to say in verse 18, “That in all things He might have the preeminence”. That is, to hold the Highest place in all of Creation.

    In Revelation 3:14 John says of Jesus Christ:

    “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God

    hê archê tês ktiseôs tou theo, Not as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who have corrupted this to read, “the Beginning of the creation by God”, so as to show that Jesus is the first to have been created by God, according to their demonic heresy! The Greek does not allow for this reading. The Greek lexicon by Drs W Arndt and F Gingrich, have listed the use of archê, here under, “the first cause” (p. 111), which is the “Ultimate Creator”. However, they also go on to say, “but the mng. Beginning = first created is linguistically poss.” (p.112). This remark is unhelpful as it is not contextually and Biblically possible. It would have required John to have written, “hupo tou theo (by God)”, which is what the JW's say in their version. In and of itself, the Greek archê, can be used as the “first in a series”, but here this meaning is not a possibility. The meaning here is as it is found in Greek usage, “origin, first cause”, so used from Homer onwards. Even the Unitarian Greek scholar, Dr Joseph Thayer, says of archê, used in Revelation 3:14, “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause”. Which makes Jesus Christ, not the first among the created things of the universe, but The Actual Creator! Jesus Christ says of Himself, that He is “The beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13), of which Dr Thayer says, “(he) arche kai (to) telos, of God, who by his perpetuity survives all things, i.e. eternal, Rev.i.8; xxi.6; xxii.13" (p.620). Here even a Unitarian, who denies that Jesus Christ is God, admits, that the language of the Bible says that Jesus Christ IS ETERNAL, that is uncreated, as it does for God in Revelation 1:8!

    Next, we have the very important passage from Hebrews chapter 1, where God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ, in a series of statements. In verses 10-12, we read:

    “And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail"

    And, in the Greek is “kai”, which is “moreover, furthermore”, following on from what the Father has been saying, of and to Jesus Christ, from verse 5 onwards. These words used by the Father in verse 10-12, to the Lord Jesus Christ, are from the Old Testament Book of Psalm, 102:25-27, where we read:

    “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end”

    The passage in Hebrews is closer to the Hebrew text that the Greek Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, than the traditional Masoretic Text, with slight variations. In the MT, these words belong to elohim (verse 24), and this is applied to Jesus by the Father, Who addresses Him as “Lord” (Yahweh). In the Psalms passage we have the Creation of the entire universe, as THE act of elohim, as we read in Genesis 1:1. But, elohim, is a plural word, so in Hebrews, we have The First Person in the Trinity, address The Second Person, and declare, that what is true of elohim Creating the universe, is also true of Jesus Christ, as THE Creator. The words of the Father, and the application of them to Jesus Christ, cannot be in any way weakened, so as to take them as meaning that Jesus is merely the “instrument”, through Whom the Father Created. The Father Himself destroys this heresy!
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,465
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hogwash times two. The Greek preposition literally means "in, or within, or inside" of something, but is also used to show instrumentality, or by means of something, something is accomplished. Note that Colossians 1:16 starts out with "For by Him..." and the by is the preposition "en" translated as showing instrumentality.
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    1,700
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have said all that I have in the OP, your response just shows that you like to argue, even though you are making a complete fool of yourself, in trying to disagree with the basic uses of Greek grammar, which, it appears, you have know knowldege of. So I won't be exchanging with you on these points. Prove me wrong from proper use of the Greek grammar, especially from what I have shown, then I will listen. Please don't waste my time with your rather silly and childish comments about things that you do know or understand!
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,465
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Taint so times two.
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    1,700
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The idea of Yahweh Creating “through” another, is seen in the Jewish Targums (ancient Aramaic paraphrase or interpretation of the Hebrew Bible), which date from around the 2nd century B.C.. Where we read the following:

    Genesis 1:27, “And the Memra (Word) of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them." (Targum Jerusalem)

    There are hundreds of references in the Targums, to “the Word of God”. Take, for example, Genesis 16:13 when Hagar sees "the Angel of the Lord," the Targum says she saw "the Word of the Lord." After seeing this "Word" (Memra) she says, "Here has been revealed the glory of the Shekineh of the Lord.". And, Exodus 3:14, “And the Memra (Word) of the Lord said to Mosheh, He who spake to the world, Be, and it was; and who will speak to it, Be, and it will be.”

    This was then adopted by the Jewish writer, Philo Judaeus, who suggested that there was a secondary, intermediate, in the Creation of the universe, "Philo uses the term Logos to express the conception of a mediator between the transcendent God of the universe, an immanent power active in creation and revelation, but though the Logos is often personified, it is never truly personalized" (W F Howard; Christianity According to St John, p.38).

    This was followed by the heretic, Origen of Alexandria, who says on John 1:3, “by whom”, “'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240). Origen taught that Jesus was a “second god”, and that He was not of the “same essence” with the Father!

    Many others, both Evangelical, Bible-believing Christians, who love the Lord and His Word, and Liberals, accept as “fact”, that the Principal Creator of the universe, is God the Father, Who is the Fons Deitatis; Who Created “through” a “secondary agent”, The Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,295
    Likes Received:
    2,324
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ONLY God Himself is the Creator, correct? No secondary agents?
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    1,700
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are no hierarchical divisions in the Godhead. God is One Being, and Three distinct, but not separate, Persons: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. And, as the famous text of 1 John 5:7 says, “and These Three are one”. That is absolutely coequal in every way. Psalm 102:25 tells us, “Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands”. 1 Chronicles 16:26, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens”. 2 Chronicles 2:12, “Hiram also said: "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who made the heavens and the earth! He has given King David a wise son with insight and understanding, who will build a temple for the LORD and a royal palace for himself.”. Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. Isaiah 42:5, “Thus says God the LORD--He who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it and life to those who walk in it”. Jeremiah 32:17, “"Oh, Lord GOD! You have made the heavens and earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You!”.

    And in more places, where the Lord God is The Creator, and there is no “agency” through whom/which that God Created. Look also at Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.”
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,465
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Who do you claim are secondary agents? In the beginning was God.... Full Stop
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    1,700
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Baptist
    you claim that Jesus was the secondary agent through Whom the Father Created.
     
  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    5,008
    Likes Received:
    200
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Read 2 Cor 5:17 in the Greek without any added words relative to what you have already written.

    Is Christ, raised from the dead, a new creation, especially of man? Consider Rom 6:9

    Edited to add, Also remember the image and likeness of God threads.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    1,700
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is 2 Cor 5:17, "ωστε ει τις εν χριστω καινη κτισις τα αρχαια παρηλθεν ιδου γεγονεν καινα τα παντα"

    I translate the Greek literally, "therefore whoever is in Christ, a new creation, the old things passed away, see, have become new all things"

    Where is the problem here. In the first place, the main though here is the "ει τις", who are "εν χριστω", as opposed to "κατα σαρκα" in the previous verse. Secondly, the "καινη κτισις", does not belong to "χριστω", but to the "ει τις". If you are trying to arrive at the "καινη κτισις" as referring to Jesus Christ being "created", then you are grasping at straws! This verse is talking about the belivers union "IN CHRIST", who are the "NEW CREATION", because this verse is in direct oppostion to the previous, which speaks if "after the flesh", and in the "OLD CREATION" of the believer! Context is always important.

    What of Romans 6:9? "ειδοτες οτι χριστος εγερθεις εκ νεκρων ουκετι αποθνησκει θανατος αυτου ουκετι κυριευει"

    "Knowing that Christ, having being raised up from among the dead, no more dies, death Him no more rules over" (my literal translation)

    And what are you trying to say from this?
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,465
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Complete falsehood, with no quote. He makes up unbiblical assertions, then attributes them to me. I kid you not...
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
Loading...