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Featured Jesus, The Sin-Offering for the Whole World.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 11, 2021.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    “Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2)

    Who does John mean by the “our”? There can be no doubt from this Letter, that it is addressed to all Christians, both Jews and Gentiles. There is no indication anywhere, that John wrote this Letter only to Jewish believers, as some argue. There are many verses that are clear, that every true believer is being addressed in 1 John.

    Here we have “our”, the entire Christian community, contrasted with “ολου του κοσμου”, the whole world. True believers, with non believers. The saved, with the unsaved. The two classes in this world. Either a person is with Jesus Christ, and truly saved, or they are against Jesus Christ, and they are truly lost. There is no way that this can be limited in any way, to mean “a few”, or even “the many”, in the world. If, as we have seen, that the “our” means born-again believers, then the “ἀλλά”, “but”, as used in “contrast”; referring to “the whole world”, is that which is outside of these Christians, and refers to the lost world of sinners. This is further seen in the use of the same words, in the fifth chapter of this Letter. In verse 19 we read, “We know that we are of God, and the whole world (ο κοσμος ολος) lies in the evil one”. Here we have the contrast again, “we are of God”, which can only refer to the truly born again believer. In verse 18 these are referred to as, “born of God”, impossible to refer to any unsaved person. Then we have the same phrase used in 2:2, “the whole world”, which can only mean, as this passage shows, unsaved, as they are said to “lie in the evil one”, that is, in his power. If, as some would argue for, the “our” in 2:2, as referring to Jewish believers, and “the whole world”, to the Gentile believers. Then, are we to suppose, that the “our” in 2:2, being the same as the “we” in 5:19, as Jewish Christian, who are “of God”; that the Gentile Christains, who are “the whole world”, are “in the power of the devil”? There is no reason why “the whole world” should be any different in both these places in this Letter of John, other than for “theology”!

    What does John mean by “ιλασμος” in 2:2? Some Bible versions chose the word “propitiation”, which means, “appeasement, conciliation”, also “A propitiatory gift, offering, or sacrifice” (Oxford).

    In Ezekiel 44:27, the Hebrew has, “he shall offer his sin-offering (חטּאה), declares the Lord GOD”. And the LXX, “they shall bring a propitiation (ιλασμον), saith the Lord God. In the NT, the Greek “ιλασμος”, late substantive from “ιλασκομα”, is also used for “merciful”, where it is used in Luke 18:13, “God be merciful to me a sinner”. Here neither the meanings “propitiate”, or “sin-offering”, would do. In Romans 3:25, Paul writes, “whom God set forth ιλαστηριον ”. “set forth” (προτίθεμαι), here has the meaning, “offered, provided”. “ἱλαστήριος”, meaning “the Mercy Seat”, from where the “sin offering” comes.

    “it answers in Septuagint to Hebrew kaapar, to effect an atonement or reconciliation with God; in Eze 44:27, to the sin-offering” (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, Commentary)

    Jesus Christ is the “sin-offering”, and the One Who “reconciles” the sinner by being “Merciful”, to God. This “sin-offering” is for the entire human race, every single person, as it very clear from 1 John 2:2, with 5:19. But, this does not mean, that every person is “saved”, which would be “universal salvation”, something that is no where taught in the Bible. Romans 3:26 tells us, “To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus” (KJV). The Sacrifice of Jesus’ Death is indeed universal, but the “effects” of this “Sacrifice”, is only when the sinner is “justified” with God, when they “believe in Jesus”. Paul makes this very clear in Ephesians 1:13, “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit”.
     
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  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    From JUST the single verse and the grammar:

    OPTION 1: "our sins" are the sins of John and the group that includes John, while "also for the whole world" is a metaphor for a larger group. This could imply “Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for [the sins of the Jews to whom the Law was given]; and not for ours only, but also for [all of the gentile peoples to whom the Law was not given].

    OPTION 2: "our sins" are the sins of John and the group that includes John, while "also for the whole world" is a metaphor for all of mankind. This could imply “Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for [the sins of Christians]; and not for ours only, but also for [every person without exception].

    The correct meaning can almost NEVER be determined from a single verse, but requires an examination of the context. Since preconceptions and arguments dominate such discussions ... I leave it to each individual to read the context and decide for themselves. (John 16:13)
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    5:18-19 renders option 1 as impossible. 2:2 cannot be ignored by appealing to other Scriptures, where the meaning and usage can be completely different. It is very clear to anyone without a theological slant, that 2:2, means option 2. As the Reformed commentary by JFB puts it:

    also for the sins of the whole world--Christ's "advocacy" is limited to believers ( 1Jo 2:1 1Jo 1:7 ): His propitiation extends as widely as sin extends: see on JF & B for 2Pe 2:1, "denying the Lord that bought them." "The whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion of the world (compare 1Jo 4:14; and "the whole world," 1Jo 5:19 ). "Thou, too, art part of the world, so that thine heart cannot deceive itself and think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me" [LUTHER].
     
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    A T Robertson

    For the whole world (περι ολου του κοσμου — peri holou tou kosmou). It is possible to supply the ellipsis here of των αμαρτιων — tōn hamartiōn (the sins of) as we have it in Hebrews 7:27, but a simpler way is just to regard “the whole world” as a mass of sin (1 John 5:19). At any rate, the propitiation by Christ provides for salvation for all (Hebrews 2:9) if they will only be reconciled with God (2 Corinthians 5:19-21).

    C Ellicott

    And not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.—This statement must not be limited. Its scope is that Christ’s redemption was offered for the whole of mankind, from Adam to the last man. Who lay hold of the redemption, must be determined on other considerations. (Comp. 1 John 4:14; John 1:29; John 4:42.) Multitudes may be saved through this redemption who never heard of Christ (Acts 10:34-35; Romans 2:14-15). St. John’s object in introducing this truth here is to rebuke the arrogance of those Christians who looked down on the non-Christian world as outside the Fatherhood and mercies of God. Such an error might be seen, for example, in the heated partisanship of a Crusader or persecutor for a civilisation politically Christian against one outside his own sympathies. (Comp. Titus 3:2-7; Romans 11:17-18.)

    John Bengel

    1 John 2:2. αὐτὸς, He Himself) This word forms an Epitasis [See Append. on this figure]: a most powerful Advocate, because He Himself is the propitiation.— ἰλασμός ἐστι, is the propitiation) The word ἰλασμός, and ἐξιλασμὸς, is of frequent occurrence in the Septuagint: it denotes a propitiatory sacrifice: ch. 1 John 4:10; comp. 2 Corinthians 5:21 : that is, the Saviour Himself. There had been therefore enmity (offence) between God and sinners.— ἡμῶν, of us) the faithful. There is no reference here to the Jews; for he is not writing to the Jews: ch. 1 John 5:21.— περὶ ὅλου) respecting (for) the sins of the whole world. If he had said only, of the world, as ch. 1 John 4:14, the whole must have been understood: now, since of the whole is expressed, who dares to put any restriction upon it? ch. 1 John 5:19. The propitiation is as widely extended as sin.

    Cambridge Greek Testament

    οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ π. ὅλου τ. κ. “The particle δέ marks the clause as guarding against error, not merely adding a new thought” (Westcott). Once more we have a parallel with the Gospel, and especially with chap. 17. ‘Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that shall believe on Me through their word … that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me … that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and lovedst them, even as Thou lovedst Me’ (John 17:20-23): ‘Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world’ (John 1:29): ‘We know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world’ (John 4:24). Comp. 1 John 4:14. S. John’s writings are so full of the fundamental opposition between Christ or believers and the world, that there was danger lest he should seem to give his sanction to a Christian exclusiveness as fatal as the Jewish exclusiveness out of which he and other converts from Judaism had been delivered. Therefore by this (note especially ‘the whole world’) and other plain statements both in Gospel (see John 11:51 in particular) and Epistle he insists that believers have no exclusive right to the merits of Christ. The expiatory offering was made for the whole world without limitation. All who will may profit by it: quam late peccatum, tam late propitiatio (Bengel). The disabilities under which the whole human race had laboured were removed. It remained to be seen who would avail themselves of the restored privileges. It is from the Latin, pro totius mundi (understanding peccatis, which Beza inserts) that the A.V. rendering, ‘but also for the sins of the whole world,’ comes. So Luther: ‘sondern auch für der ganzen Welt.’ The supposed ellipse is neither necessary nor very probable: rather, as R.V., but also for the whole world. Comp. John 5:36; Hebrews 9:7. The latter passage shews that the ellipse is not necessary; and if it be said that ἱλασμός implies τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν (which may be doubted), then let ‘propitiation’ imply ‘sins’ in the English. We are not justified in inserting the word.
     
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Please explain the difference between Christ's "advocacy" and His "propitiation" since it sounds like YOUR Jesus is a politician ... "my sins are forgiven, but I am still going to hell for them".
     
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  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    1 John 2:2 says that Jesus' Death is "a sin offering", for the sins of the entire world, none excepted. Jesus Himself teaches that unless a sinner "repents and believes" (Mk 1:15), they cannot receive forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:37-38, 3:19). It does not say that Jesus is the "Advocate" for the whole world, which is only for the saved, "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father" (2:1). Jesus is the "sin-offering" for the entire human race. This is the natural, untheological way to read these words, which become foreign to what they say, when they are forced to adapt to ones theological positions.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    That is a saved by works teaching or a universalist salvation teaching. Which of those two camps is your preferred teaching?
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    OK, so I have no issues with the "Advocate" part because it is clearly talking about Jesus advocating for people who are already saved. So the "unsaved" never enter into the equation. I get that.

    This view bothers me (if we are honest, it bothers me a LOT, with reasons that have nothing to do with "theological lenses"). How can I read this verse and that interpretation and not conclude of Jesus Death: "So what?" Jesus was the perfect offering. The perfect offering was given. God accepted the perfect offering. The perfect offering saved NOBODY! Those that are saved received the exact same perfect offering as those that are damned. So SOMETHING OTHER THAN the perfect offering must be the cause of the salvation of those that are saved. The death of Christ is not the source of my salvation (the damned have the same death for them).

    This is the logical conclusion. I ... ME ... MY. This is not to pick on you, this is someone that grew up well educated in the world of looking out for number one first. This rubs against the fur of everything Christ has taught me about the difference between the OLD MAN that I was and the NEW MAN that He has called me to be. I must respond. I must repent. I must believe. I am master of my salvation ... just as I was master of my nihilistic life before God intervened. It sure is a good thing that I am better than those sinning fools and made the right decision to save myself ... otherwise Jesus perfect offering would have been completely wasted.

    I know that is not what you believe or teach. I am merely attempting to communicate why I bristle at what seems like such a good and loving and biblical view of those scriptures. Believe me, as former Church of God of Anderson Indiana (Wesleyan), I really wanted to believe that. I could not get scripture and my personal experience to affirm that view.

    I am open to Universal Atonement in theory, but I just cannot see how it reconciles with Ephesians 2:8 and God doing the saving.

    Thank you for taking the time to answer.
     
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  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Why MUST belief be a "work"?

    Even Hypercalvinists believe that Jesus death was SUFFICIENT for all, even if it was never intended for "every person without exception".
     
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Sbg does not post about an actual atonement, but rather a potential atonement that is not efficacious.
    Another ill fated thread...dead on arrival.
     
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  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    first problem that I see you have, if I am right in saying that, that you hold to a "actual atonement", and not a "potential" one? Do you believe that sinners were actually saved on the cross? Or, that the cross is an "offering" for the salvation of those sinners who "repent and believe"? I see this in Romans 3:25-26, "whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus". Only those who "receive by faith" the Sacrfice of Jesus Christ, and have faith in His finised work on the cross, can be actually saved.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus died to save the sinner that He paid the sin debt for in full, so unless one holds to Universalism, has to be a limited atonement!
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    show this from the Bible
     
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  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you cannot get away from the OP, which proves what you say wrong!
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think that depends on if one views saving faith itself as a gift from God towards us, or if somehow will it up in ourselves!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God intended to have all of those whom Jesus died in place of to get saved!
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The OP, which is from the Bible, is clear that Jesus Christ was the sin-offering for the entire human race, and not only any "elect". Show how the OP is not right?
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are all now then saved?
     
  19. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    So is there some THEORETICAL way that Christ died for all (without exception) and God gives faith to some (for salvation)?
    If it is POSSIBLE, then we can search if it is Scriptural.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    It's not. Repentance before belief can happen is a work.
    The OP, as I responded, was not addressing sufficiency, but addressing effectiveness. Did Jesus atoning work effect all humans or only all humans who believe?
    Is there a response that must occur from the willful choice of the sinner before that sinner can believe?
     
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