Jesus's Wine Fermented or NOT?

[EdSutton]

Can you elaborate, please?
e.g. Other biological processes = ?????

Well, maybe it's just me, but I'd consider fermentation to be a 'biological process.'

Ed

 

[Allan]

I think it's very clear from Scripture Jesus made the very best wine (Isaiah 25:6 defines this), and being jewish, did in fact drink wine, as all jews have done for thousands of years.

I addressed the upper portion in a seperate post already but I wanted to bring something to your attention about this passage.

This is referencing the time AFTER the Millinnienal reign of Christ, when there is a new heaven and a new earth. There is not sin there, no death thus no decay. The imagery there metaphorical according various lexicons. The mountain is figurative to the Kingdom because not all the people of world can remotely fit in Jerusalem. The feast (of fat and wines on the lees) are themselves according to thayers lexicon specifically (it's easist to find and research online) metaphores with breaking away for their yoke and the other speaks of peace and tranquility). Don't take my word for it though .

But again this is after the MR and after the new earth is created in which we will live. No death, no decay, no sin... how can there be fermintation? I know it is more a question in the relm of speculation but this passage is actually speaking figuritively of the people feastiing on the blessing of Christ and the peace and tranquility that will accompany it.

 

[Allan]

Wine will not rot. Grape juice will either rot or ferment depending on the conditions.

A.T. Robertson writes,
"With new wine (gleukous). Sweet wine, but intoxicating. Sweet wine kept a year was very intoxicating. Genitive case here after memestômenoi eisin (periphrastic perfect passive indicative), old verb mestoô, only here in the N.T. Tanked up with new wine, state of fulness."

And this is contradictory to my point how?

I said what they were accussing them of doing was actaully being drunk and that the word wine here meant just that - alcoholic.

 

[Allan]

Guys remember I'm not saying one can not drink.

I'm saying there is enough scripture to make one examine why they should.

and secondly there is the weaker brother and our christian liberty to limit ourselves for the their sakes.

1 John 3:16. Who will die to themselves for their brothers in Christ?

Paul, knowing full well his christian liberty, would not eat or drink (ever!) if he knew that it caused his brother/sister to stumble because to them it was sin. We claim we are not prideful but how many of us are willing to swollow our pride (I mean liberty) that we might endevor to encourage others to grow in Christ.

THAT is my point in this thread - as well as other odd and ends.

 

[gb93433]

And this is contradictory to my point how?

I said what they were accusing them of doing was actually being drunk and that the word wine here meant just that - alcoholic.

I do not think it is contradictory. Often people try and manipulate the meaning of the Greek word in Acts to mean something other than wine. People can act like they are out of their mind or drunk when they are extremely happy or in some kind of emotional state of mind that is way beyond normal.

 

[Gwyneth]

Well, maybe it's just me, but I'd consider fermentation to be a 'biological process.'

So would I Ed :laugh: I was wondering what these`other` biological processes` were....... seems the poster does not know either. We`d better ask Socrates A. Kaloyereas (whoever that is) on the other hand, I may just believe that God knew what he was doing when he brought `biological processes` into being.

 

[Jerome]

The article describes hermetic sealing and natural antioxidants being employed to combat decomposition.
Are you really that clueless about what causes things to spoil?

 

[webdog]

I addressed the upper portion in a seperate post already but I wanted to bring something to your attention about this passage.

This is referencing the time AFTER the Millinnienal reign of Christ, when there is a new heaven and a new earth. There is not sin there, no death thus no decay. The imagery there metaphorical according various lexicons. The mountain is figurative to the Kingdom because not all the people of world can remotely fit in Jerusalem. The feast (of fat and wines on the lees) are themselves according to thayers lexicon specifically (it's easist to find and research online) metaphores with breaking away for their yoke and the other speaks of peace and tranquility). Don't take my word for it though .

But again this is after the MR and after the new earth is created in which we will live. No death, no decay, no sin... how can there be fermintation? I know it is more a question in the relm of speculation but this passage is actually speaking figuritively of the people feastiing on the blessing of Christ and the peace and tranquility that will accompany it.

Fermentation is not decay. It is actually a purification biological process. I think whether it is metaphorical or not, the very fact the Holy Spirit would inspire such language (if the consumption of wine were sinful) alluding to God participating in something sinful doesn't make much sense.

 

[webdog]

The article describes hermetic sealing and natural antioxidants being employed to combat decomposition.
Are you really that clueless about what causes things to spoil?

We cannot even do this today, how could it have been done thousands of years ago? Why does my pasteurized, sealed, refrigerated grape juice still ferment after time?

 

[Gwyneth]

The article describes hermetic sealing and natural antioxidants being employed to combat decomposition.

Are you really that clueless about what causes things to spoil?QUOTE]

are you really as rude as your post implies?

 

[webdog]

Guys remember I'm not saying one can not drink.

I'm saying there is enough scripture to make one examine why they should.

and secondly there is the weaker brother and our christian liberty to limit ourselves for the their sakes.

1 John 3:16. Who will die to themselves for their brothers in Christ?

Paul, knowing full well his christian liberty, would not eat or drink (ever!) if he knew that it caused his brother/sister to stumble because to them it was sin. We claim we are not prideful but how many of us are willing to swollow our pride (I mean liberty) that we might endevor to encourage others to grow in Christ.

THAT is my point in this thread - as well as other odd and ends.

I agree that we shouldn't offend a weaker brother...but I don't think ignorance of the topic should be encouraged, either. It seems to be cultural. The United States is one of the only countries to hold to this view. If we lived in another part of the world, coffee consumption may be the topic of this thread.

Maybe this should deserve it's own thread

 

[Allan]

Fermentation is not decay. It is actually a purification biological process. I think whether it is metaphorical or not, the very fact the Holy Spirit would inspire such language (if the consumption of wine were sinful) alluding to God participating in something sinful doesn't make much sense.

Fermentation is the breaking down of its original state and changing it's composition to something distinctly different. Technically that falls into the catagory of decay - or to deteriorate (no longer in its original state)

Web, have you ever heard/read me ever state that drinking was/is sinful?

lastly - ferminitation is not purification :thumbs:

To purify something means that you taking out of it anything that would imbue or taint what it's original was/is.

 

[Allan]

We cannot even do this today, how could it have been done thousands of years ago? Why does my pasteurized, sealed, refrigerated grape juice still ferment after time?

Brother, people thousands of years ago cut gemstones more accurately than our modern machinery. The pyramids blocks were placed so closely together you can not get a razor between many of them, and we to this day can not duplicate this.
The Inca's (or maybe it was the Azteks) carved incredible and intricate stone workings and statues that according to their assumed level of technology was impossible. We haven't even found any of their tools with which they built and carved.

The fact is they had more knowledge of many things that have been lost to us even as we have made discoveries they did not think of. So yes, it is something that they were able to do but something we have not yet figured out.

 

[Allan]

Anyway brother, I have my peace.

Keep God first but don't forget about me in your thoughts.

Love you all.

Allan

 

[webdog]

Fermentation is the breaking down of its original state and changing it's composition to something distinctly different. Technically that falls into the catagory of decay - or to deteriorate (no longer in its original state)

Web, have you ever heard/read me ever state that drinking was/is sinful?

lastly - ferminitation is not purification :thumbs:

To purify something means that you taking out of it anything that would imbue or taint what it's original was/is.

I'm sorry, but on this one you are wrong

Decay is rotting. Fermentation is not due to rotting, but the chemical interaction of sugar and yeast. The grape itself decays, but is totally separate from fermentation. I somehow believe God will not deem it sinful to eat cheese in New Jerusalem, either

Fermentation is purificatation of the yeast from the wine. This started in the OT with the Israelites having to sweep their homes of all yeast, as it represented sin. During fermentation, all yeast is removed from the mixture.

 

[Nonsequitur]

Timothy 3:8 (New American Standard Bible)

8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued,or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,



If wine is really just grape juice, how much grape juice can a deacon have before he is disqualified from that office?

Anyone want to answer?

 

[Spinach]

The Deacon and the juice was a good one, and so funny! I agree.

Anyone want to talk about Turkish cofee? You can drink it, but can you stand to chew it?

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, the word in Acts 2:15 isn't "oinos" a generic term for both fermented and unfermented wine but this word for wine here is "gleukos". Thus it is specific and refers to a newly made or sweet wine.

Their accusation about them being drunk was because they were claiming the dead man some called the Christ had risen.

So for Peter to get up and state that they were 'follers of Christ they don't drink' would given rise to even more laughter and speculation. However Peter did state that they were not drunk and then proceeded to exound what they talking about.

Thanks, Allan.

I'm ignorant about wine. Is new wine fermented? I'm assuming so, since drunkenness and new wine are connected in 2:15.

If so, can it be inferred from Peter's response that they were fermented wine drinkers?

I recognize that this event is somewhat of a stretch for arguing about wine in the Bible. That's why I asked folks more knowledgeable than I to comment.

 

[webdog]

Thanks, Allan.

I'm ignorant about wine. Is new wine fermented? I'm assuming so, since drunkenness and new wine are connected in 2:15.

If so, can it be inferred from Peter's response that they were fermented wine drinkers?

I recognize that this event is somewhat of a stretch for arguing about wine in the Bible. That's why I asked folks more knowledgeable than I to comment.

New wine was alcoholic, but not well refined. It was not the "best" well aged wine. All wine ferments to the same percentage pretty quickly, but it is time that separates good wine from bad and mediocre wine. The vintage is very important.

 

[webdog]

Anyway brother, I have my peace.

Keep God first but don't forget about me in your thoughts.

Love you all.

Allan

Will do. Take care of your little ones You need an updated pic with the entire "Allan" clan...