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Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alfred Persson., Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson. New Member

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    Let's focus on that. Those raised up in John 5:29 can't be the church for the following reasons.

    The first resurrection/rapture of the church happens before Christ's descent onto the earth at His Second coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16), and they reign with Christ in His millennial kingdom for a 1000 years as His Kings and Priests.

    So when the Dead are raised up 1000 years later, its not the church being judged:

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:11-13 NKJ)

    This also fits this being a judgment according to works while the church was already saved while they were alive by grace, through faith and then all raised up in the First resurrection 1000 years before this.

    These come up out of Hell (Hades) and are judged, rendering it impossible John is talking about the church who was already reigning with Christ as Kings and priests.

    Confirming these being judged aren't the church is the open book of life. While the elect were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8) these either have their names written into the book ((Mal 3:16) or blotted out from it (Rev 3:5) depending upon their works.

    So this event corresponds with Christ's words in John 5:28-29

    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)


    And the first resurrection a thousand years earlier of people who believed in Christ during their life time and so never went to hell, is in John 5:24

    24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
    25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
    26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, (Joh 5:24-26 NKJ)

    So we have God saving all the elect, the entire church + those who rose up from Hades (Hell) and were judged worthy of having their names written in the Lamb's book of life.

    Because it is impossible anyone merit eternal life in God's kingdom, its still by grace these are saved and raised up into life. An analogy would be the lifeguard who swims out and saves all those who waved to him. The waving saved no one, it only got the lifeguard's attention and then he saved them.

    By analogy and implication (John 3:22f; 1 Pet 4:4-6; 1 Cor 5:5) I believe God saves all who repent in Hades, but not the Devil, his angels, his children (who would not repent), and none of those who sinned eternally in this life

    31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
    32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
    (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)

    No one is saved apart from Christ:

    12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

    All are saved only because Christ paid for their sins:

    2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

    So Christians need not be ashamed for the gospel of hell, its actually good news. Yes, all sinners will pay for their sins dearly, but whosoever believeth in Him, even if its in Hades, will not perish, but be granted a resurrection into life by the sure and tender Mercies of our God, in Jesus' Name.
     
    #21 Alfred Persson., Jan 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2012
  2. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson. New Member

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    The flaw in your theory is supposing the Bible is the word of man and not the Word of God. God knows the truth about the afterlife and clearly would not allow men put lies and delusions in His Word.

    The other flaw in your theory is supposing people can be "poetic" about things they don't believe.

    For example, Jonah could not write comparing his time in the belly of a great fish with Sheol, if he didn't believe these were similar:

    2 And he said: "I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice. (Jon 2:2 NKJ)

    Jonah obviously believed the dead could be rescued from Sheol, and THAT is why he compared his rescue from the depths to it.

    The third flaw of your argument, is what does it do to the entire scripture, if none of it is true to fact, but all a product of private interpretation...

    May as well read a comic book if that is all it is.

    I believe the bible is the Word of God, and not someone's experience put in poetic form, disguised as revelation of the after life:

    20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
    21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (2Pe 1:20-21 NKJ)

    God wrote scripture so every verse is profitable for doctrine, that the man of God be complete, and not misled:

    16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

    As for the three class outline I document exists in the teaching of Christ, I said its "implied" not explicitly taught. Like in Mat 25:33-40, the church cannot be the sheep for they don't even recognize who Christ is and are judged by their works. The church certainly aren't the goats. So who are the sheep? Answer, those who died not knowing Christ, or didn't believe in Him at the time of His coming...and so were judged according to their works, depending how they treated the church, Christ's "brethren" = Three Groups: sheep, goats, my brethren. I see some analogy to the holocaust, during the reign of the antichrist, these sheltered Christ's brethren before they were raptured. Before the antichrist, they were charitable to them, without realizing Christ was watching.
     
    #22 Alfred Persson., Jan 31, 2012
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  3. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson. New Member

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    Its certainly locked, that's why Christ has a key, so He can rescue whomsoever He wants to, out of it:

    18 "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (Rev 1:18 NKJ)

    After all, what's the fun of it, if you don't use the keys to let some out.
     
  4. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    You do not learn do you? Once more I´ll go no further than the rubbish you are building this trash on. I did not mention the resurrection of the Olod Testament Saints (Matt. 27:50-53) because this is not the first resurrection of the Church and only the foolish Preterists attempt to sell this fool´s idea! Please ready our Bible, you look like a fool when you do this to yourself. The Church of the Christ did not exist before the beginning of His ministry... foolishness!
     
  5. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    THIS THREAD is the big problem with Darbyism . . .

    two paths to salvation, law keeping and faith in Jesus.

    When the Rapture comes, do the Jews get raptured? Why or why not?
     
  6. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson. New Member

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    Of course Jewish Christians get raptured, why wouldn't they?

    There is a judgment according to works in Mat 25:33-40, where works that prove one has unknowingly received Christ also saves.

    31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
    32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
    33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
    36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
    37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
    38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
    39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
    40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
    (Mat 25:31-40 NKJ)

    Clearly this is a third group judged according to works…according to their own conscience:

    14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
    15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
    16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom 2:14-16 NKJ)

    2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

    So its not "us only" Christ died for, His sacrifice allows God hear the cases of those who died without Christ, but had proved by their works they didn't hate the light. They just didn't know Christ before they died. These acted well according to their conscience which now excuses them for sins done in ignorance of God's law.


    Same here, Judgment Day happens a thousand years after the church has been reigning with Christ as Kings and priests in His kingdom, therefore "the dead" who rise up from Hades are NOT the church:

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:11-13 NKJ)

    Yet the book of life is opened indicating some of these would be written into it, after passing the judgment according to their works.

    Had these believed in Christ while alive they would have been raptured or resurrected a 1000 years earlier at Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16) their salvation wouldn't be in question (John 5:24) now.

    But they didn't, they died not believing in Christ therefore they are "the dead" in Hades and Death. AND these are judged just BEFORE they are raised to determine what sort of resurrection body they will be raised in, glorious or abhorrent. (Daniel 12:2-3; Isaiah 66:25; John 5:28-29)

    They are the third group, the "intermediate" being neither the elect or the wicked, they are the "average sinners" who, if they prove they would have received Christ into their homes if only they knew He was in need (Mat 25:33-40), are saved by God's grace, because THE propitiation of Christ isn't for "us only", its also for them.
    2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)


    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
    (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)
     
  7. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    Yes and o, depends on how you define the term, Jew. The atheist, agnostic and the Jewish Religion Believer... no! The Messianic Jewish Believer, yes! The reason is because Jesus is the path. (John 10:7, 9)
     
  8. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member
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    For your many words, you have not read the question to understand it and thus have said nothing. He said thye Jew!
     
  9. mandym

    mandym New Member

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    Heresy!:BangHead:
     
  10. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson. New Member

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    Christ and His apostles taught orthodoxy, everything else is heresy.

    The church is raised in the first resurrection with the martyrs a thousand years before judgment day:

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

    7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
    8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
    9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
    10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:4-13 NKJ)

    So "the dead, small and great" being judged is not the church, and that is why they were judged "each one according to their works."

    The open book of life proves some of these did works that allowed God write their name in the book of life, mercifully saving them.

    So there are two ways to God's saving grace: election; judgment according to works.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Alright. So far so good. That is the pre-mil position.
    This is a judgment of those that are spiritually dead (i.e., unsaved), those that were in hell, all those who do not have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. It is their final sentence before they are cast into the Lake of Fire. It is like a small fire cast into a much larger fire. They will have resurrected bodies which will burn forever and ever.

    "They will judged, each one according to their works."
    What does the phrase mean? They are all unsaved.
    It can only mean one thing. There are degrees of punishment or torment in Hell. There will be torment for Hitler than the person who has simply heard the gospel once and then rejected it. For further evidence look at Scripture:

    Matthew 11:23-24 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
    --The Lord says that in that day of Judgment (the Great White Throne Judgment) it will be more tolerable for Sodom, than it will be for Capernaum. How and why will that be? Jesus did man miracles in Capernaum, great miracles that proved his deity. Still they did not believe. They say his miracles and heard him speak, while he was God incarnate. The people of Sodom had no such luxury but were destroyed by fire. It will be more tolerable in the Lake of Fire for them; in the day of Judgment for them. Why? They will be judged according to their works. The greatest evil work a person can commit is to reject Christ, and that is what the people of Capernaum had done. They will suffer a very severe sentence. There is no chance for anyone to be saved here.
    --Right. They come out of Hell; stand before a Holy God, and then are cast into the Lake of Fire.
    No, the names of believers are already written in the Lamb's book of Life and have been written there from the foundation of the world. God knew who they were. They were not dependent on works at all. The works indicate how much torment they will receive.
    Don't be deceived. It does not.
    This does speak of the two resurrections. You have that right. But there is no resurrection according to works. The one is for believers--those who have trusted Christ; the other is for unbelievers--those who have rejected Christ. Works do not fit into this equation.
    That is true.
    They were judged worthy on the basis that they heard God's word, and on that basis "believed in Him who sent Me."
    Only Christ can save. It is our faith in his atoning work.
    Those who go to hell are there for all eternity. There remains no more help for them. God does not save any from Hell, though they may seek it with repentance. Read the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Your chance to be saved is on earth. Today he offers to be your Savior; tomorrow he may be your judge. After death it is too late.

    It is appointed unto man once to die; and after that the judgment.
    There is judgment after death--no time for repentance.

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    The same fate awaits the unsaved as the beast and the false prophet--tormented day and night.
    non sequitor.
    This passage has nothing to do with today.
    This is all true.

    There is no gospel of hell. Where do you get that from?
    You haven't pointed to a single verse that says there will be a gospel in hell

    2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
     
    #31 DHK, Feb 5, 2012
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  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I'm having a hard time understanding one point in this paragraph. It appears from your wording in this paragraph that you believe that one could be saved after death, when you say, "even if it's in Hades." Can you clarify this? Thanks.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    They aren't my words. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I have edited the post. The paragraph is heresy.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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  15. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson. New Member

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    Lets focus on this before moving on to your other points.


    Context is overwhelmingly against the presumption Revelation 20:11-15 is an execution of the wicked only.

    Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. (Rev 20:11 NKJ)

    This throne is different, it’s the great white throne of Judgment (the Lamb is not said to be near (Rev. 5:6, 13; 6:16; 7:9-10, 17;. 22:1, 3), it’s the Great White throne Judgment seat of Christ (John 5:22, 27; Ac 17:31; 2 Cor 5:10).

    That makes this the same resurrection event where both good and bad rise:

    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

    Those who have done good rise from Hades in glorious incorruptible bodies (1 Cor 15:42ff; Gal 6:8), those who have done evil will rise in abominable bodies characterized by corruption (Isa 66:24; Mark 9:42-48), animated corpses that communicate to the souls imprisoned within them the undiluted wrath of an offended Holy God. Gnashing of teeth being indicative of intense physical pain like that of liquid fire and a corrupting worm. Being a corpse, these cannot move to lessen their torment (Mat 22:13), being far from the light of God they cannot see, hence its outer darkness (Isa 8:22).

    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. (Dan 12:2-3 NKJ)

    But all these references prove this is a resurrection of the righteous AND the unrighteous, not the unrighteous only:

    I have the same hope in God as they themselves have that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. (Acts 24:15 NKJ)


    No one is saved apart from Christ, there is no other name under the heaven whereby men can be saved (Acts 4:12) but the propitiation of Christ isn't for us only saved by grace (Eph 2:5, 8), it is able to cover the sins of those who "done good" but failed to believe in Christ in this life.

    2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)


    [Compare those still alive after the rapture/first resurrection after Christ descends upon the earth in Mat 25:33-40, they didn't know Christ was being benefited by their works of charity, yet its equivalent to receiving Christ (Mat 25:40) and therefore these works save them.]


    The existence of these "intermediate" not saved in this life, is proven by the open "book of life" in verse 12:


    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

    This "book of life" isn't just a list of names from the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8), names can be added to it (Mal 3:16-18; Ps 69:28) or blotted out (Ex 32:32-33; Rev 3:5) PROVING names exist in it that aren't "eternally secure," or "the church elected from the foundation of the world."

    By grace we are saved, not works, eternally secure in Christ, no one can pluck us from His Hand. Therefore the church's names cannot be added to or blotted out from this book.

    So there must be another group of people, who can be added to or blotted out from the book. These are judged according to their works on Judgment Day when the eternal destiny of the righteous and the unrighteous dead is determined by Christ.


    That this is the Jewish concept of the "book of life" is clear from the Talmud:

    "Three books are opened [in heaven] on New Year, one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for the intermediate. The thoroughly righteous are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of life; the thoroughly wicked are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of death; the doom of the intermediate is suspended from New Year till the Day of Atonement; if they deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of life; if they do not deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of death….

    It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment - one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate.-Talmud, Mas. Rosh HaShanna 16b, -Judaic Classics Library by David Kantrowitz, 2001, Institute for Computers in Jewish Life, Judaica Press, Inc.


    Paul's instructor (Ac 22:3) Gamaliel presided over the school or "Beth" Shammai around 30 A.D. and generally speaking, this three group outline of humanity is carried forward into the New Testament:

    Corroborating this Christ implied "old treasure" would aid understanding this parable:


    49 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
    50 "and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
    51 Jesus said to them, "Have you understood all these things?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord."
    52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."
    (Mat 13:49-52 NKJ)

    The church was already raptured and raised up 1000 years before this event, saved by Grace. This is a judgment of the "intermediate" "spiritually dead" on Judgment Day.


    Confirming Revelation 20:11ff isn't "execution day" of the wicked, is the wording of Rev. 20:4-6, the "rest of the dead" naturally refers to the "rest of the righteous dead" as they are associated with the martyrs, but failed to do as they, commit themselves fully to Christ in this life:

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:4-6 NKJ)

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
    (Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

    Verse 15 confirms this exegesis, its parenthetical applying to the entire Judgment Day event as it appears after Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire.

    The Greek "if anyone" εἴ τις is classified as a "first class conditional" ("if this, then that is true") which do not imply an actual existence of the hypothetical, the premise exists for argument only. (James L Boyer First Class Conditions: What Do They Mean, Grace Theological Journal, Spring 1981).

    However J Boyer forgot BOTH these conditions actually exist, names may or may not be in the book of life (Rev 17:8; 21:27; Dan 12:1); therefore John's statement is not a hypothetical, in context its a statement of fact. As John observes those cast into the lake of fire, its revealed to him the "condition of their names not being in the book of life" was in effect.

    So the parenthetical wording does imply reality; that some were written in the book of life---as it is referring to the entire event---and therefore some were not cast into the fire.

    All who passed the judgment according to works, had their names written in.

    It does not follow these merited eternal salvation in God's kingdom, that they weren't actually "saved by Grace" just as it doesn't follow the "attention getting" hand wave of the drowning is what saved the person, and not the lifeguard who plucked them out of the water and by his strength rowed them back to shore. In other words, the "low bar" they met didn't merit eternal life, it served as the "attention getting wave" crying out to God for Mercy.

    These are judged according to their works and if love of light is manifest (cf Mat 25:35-40; cp John 3:19-21), repentance (1 Cor 5:5; 1 Pet 4:4-6) in particular, then they are saved by grace and their names are written in the book of life and therefore they receive "things of life," a glorious resurrection body.

    God is not partial, had the wicked repented and proved love of light, they too would have been saved (2 Pet 3:9, provided they didn't sin eternally in this life like the Devil and his angels Mat 12:31f). But they failed the judgment according to works, therefore they are cast into the lake of fire; not because of positive or negative divine reprobation, but because they failed to repent and choose the light.
     
    #35 Alfred Persson., Feb 6, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2012
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You are confused.
    1. There is the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:10-15)
    2. There is the Judgment Seat of Christ (1Cor.3:11-15)
    --The former is for unbelievers, and the latter for believers.
    No believers will be present at the Great White Throne Judgment. It is for the Unsaved only. It happens after the Millennial Kingdom, after the 1,000 rule of Christ. It is not for believers. The Judgment Seat of Christ is before the Millennial Kingdom.
    There is no such thing as "the Great White throne Judgment seat of Christ." You have collected phrases from different verses and run them all together to come up with one unbibilical phrase.
    One resurrection for just; one for the unjust.
    That means two resurrections; not just one.
    The resurrection of the just before the thousand years.
    Much of what you say is as you imagine it and speculative. The facts as we know it are:
    They will have an immortal body.
    That body will endure forever and ever and will suffer torment forever and ever in a place called the Lake of Fire.
    They will be horribly conscious of all of their sufferings and the reason for it--their rejection of Christ; not as some suppose--their lack of good works.
    No they don't. There are two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust. You have not proved your point at all.
    The subject is understood for both objects. There is a resurrection for the righteous, and a resurrection for the unrighteous. There are two resurrections.
    If you fail to trust Christ you will end up in hell with no questions asked.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    --The Lord is very specific. If you do not believe on him there is no salvation, no second chances. Salvation is by faith alone. No amount of works can ever get a person to heaven. It is through Christ alone and not through works.
    He is the propitiation for all the sins of the world, but only those who appropriate his grace or offer of salvation will this atonement be efficacious.
    THERE IS NO "INTERMEDIATE"
    You haven't proved that names can be added or deleted from the book of life.
    Revelation 17:8 ... they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,
    Eternally Security is one of the foundational doctrines of the Bible.
    This much is true.
    There are the saved and the unsaved. There are no other groups of people. No one will be saved by works; not even one.
    For by grace are ye saved through faith and that nor of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works.
    No one is ever saved by works: Not during this lifetime, not in the next, and not during any Judgment--never. There is no "other" group of people.
    Couldn't careless what the Talmud says. It is not Scripture; it is not inspired. It also says that if one should walk in front of a Rabbi and sneeze that that one would be cursed. :rolleyes:
    Saul was a murderer of Christians, and the Sanhedrin orchestrated the crucifixion of Christ.
    There is no "intermediate." The rapture of the church or the saved takes place a thousand years before the second resurrection, at which time the Great White Throne Judgment will also take place. That makes two judgments: saved and unsaved separated by a thousand years.

     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is the final sentencing of the unsaved.
    These speak of the martyrs that shall reign with Christ. Notice it says that they are in the first resurrection. There are two resurrections, not one. The second resurrection is after a thousand years, as is confirmed in verse 5.
    This event has nothing to do with verses 4-6. This event begins with verse 10. You cannot mix up contexts.
    The only thing revealed to John is the saved have their names written in the book of life and that they were there from the foundation of the world, and second, that the unsaved do not have their names written in the book of life because they did not believe. God knew from the foundation of the earth that they would not believe.
    The aspect of works is related to the torment in the Lake of Fire, not related to salvation in any way. Salvation is never related to merit.
    That is right, for salvation is not of works.
    Heresy! Where do you get such doctrine! It is not in the Bible.
    The only judgment according to works for those standing before the Great White Throne Judgement will be related to the degree of punishment or torment received in the Lake of fire.
    Men love darkness rather than light for the deeds are evil. There is no amount of light manifest for those in the darkness of hell, and those that are unsaved. There will be no repentance. And even if there were, their chance for repentance is over. We have this one chance on earth to repent and believe. Today Christ offers to be your Savior; tomorrow He may be your Judge.
    God is not partial. They went to hell because they rejected Christ.
    There is no judgment according to works in relation to salvation. Salvation is never according to works; never. They are cast into the lake of fire because they rejected Christ and for no other reason than that.
     
  18. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson. New Member

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    It says "the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:12 NKJ)", NOT sentenced.

    So only the martyrs rise into life, why then did Christ say these come up out of hades into life:

    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
    (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)


    So scripture (20:4-6) has nothing to do with scripture (20:11ff), but how then would we know its not the first resurrection? Therefore your premise is incorrect.


    The book of life isn't open for show, its open to symbolize some of these are written therein and therefore not cast into the lake of fire, otherwise it would not have been mentioned:

    And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:12 NKJ)



    You say the works are related only to the lake of fire, but you failed to prove it. John says these were judged according to the books, and as one of them is the book of life, it implies "those who done good, to the resurrection of life."



    So heresy isn't a French cleric saying God---for His own good pleasure and will, reprobated the vast majority of mankind to eternal punishment; regardless whether these did good or bad…but believing Jesus and Paul ----is heresy?
    the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
    7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality
    ;
    8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
    9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
    10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God. (Rom 2:5-11 NKJ)



    You neglected to produce scriptural proof of your many claims, why should I believe you when Christ and His apostles were so clear there is a resurrection of both the just and the unjust together?

    15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. (Act 24:15 NKJ)



    While its true all who fail to repent and believe in Christ go to hell, its also true Christ said they can be forgiven for rejecting Him:

    31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
    32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
    (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)

    That's why He has the keys, so He can lock people up, or let them out!

    18 "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (Rev 1:18 NKJ)


    Peter expressly says this is why the gospel of Christ was preached to spiritually dead mockers who speak evil of Christians, that they can be judged worthy of Hell for their sins, yet live according to God in the spirit implying they will be saved on Judgment Day:

    4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
    5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
    6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
    (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

    Even the sinning church goer can have his spirit saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus (Rev 20:11-15) if he repents:

    5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


    This is plainly taught by Christ and His apostles, what a French cleric fresh out of Catholicism said centuries after Christ, is not.

    Orthodoxy is what Christ and His apostles teach, not those who rose up after them, centuries later.



    You say there is no judgment according to Works, the bible says differently:

    Mat 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


    Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy; For You render to each one according to his work. (Psa 62:12 NKJ)


    It is unscientific we ignore these facts and force everything fit a 16th century view.

    Rather sola scripturists acknowledge what scripture expressly says, the church (elected from before the foundation of the world) is saved by grace, not works...and the rest of mankind who failed to believe in Christ in this life, are judged according to their works, precisely as Jesus taught:

    31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
    32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
    33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
    36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
    37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
    38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
    39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
    40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
    41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
    43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
    44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
    45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
    46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:31-1 NKJ)

    As both the sheep and the goats are judged according to their works, they aren't "My brethren = the church" (cp Rom 8:29f), who were already raptured before this judgment happened.

    Heeding Christ is not heretical, its the right thing to do.
     
    #38 Alfred Persson., Feb 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2012
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Book of Revelation moves rapidly from one scene to another. It is an apocalyptic book. The scene at the end of chapter 20 is completely different than what John sees at the beginning. Here is what John sees, in its entirety, at the end of the chapter. Remember it is a different scene:

    Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    --The dead are the unsaved. Death and hell give up the dead which are in them. They have already been eternally condemned. Eternal sentencing has already been passed down. They have already been judged according to their works--the one work of refusing Christ. Now all will be cast into the lake of fire--the second death. This is called the Great White Throne Judgment. Indeed, it is a judgment. It is their final sentence, their final pronouncement of doom before they are cast into this Lake of Fire. No mercy will be found here. The judgment has already been made. The judgment was made on earth when the rejected Christ. There is not one person here that can escape this judgment.
    Because there is a resurrection of the just. There are two resurrections, not one.
    Two resurrections: one for the just; the other for the unjust.
    John 5:28,29 agree with me. Both John 5:28,29 and Rev.20:4-6 describe two resurrections; two judgments each separated by a thousand years. The resurrection of the just precedes the resurrection of the unjust by a thousand years. After the resurrection of the just there will be the judgment seat of Christ for the believers. That also will be before the thousand years takes place. See 1Cor.3:11-15.
    The only good a person can do is to believe on Christ. Christ said that himself:

    John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    --The only work that you can do that God accepts is to believe on Christ.

    All other works are unacceptable by God.
    Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    --God doesn't want your "righteousnesses," your "good works." The only good work he wants from you is for you to receive His Son on the basis of his atoning blood for your sin. That is the ONLY good work that he accepts.
    You take this passage out of its context, as it is a passage of Scripture that is addressing the Jewish nation and contrasting them, who have the law of God to the Gentiles which have not the law of God. You have misconstrued this passage completely, and by doing so simply show your ignorance in Scripture.
    If you read three verses later you would find out that all Gentiles have a realization of the moral law of God because it is written in their hearts, validated by their consciences, and proven by the fact that they are constantly excusing themselves while accusing others for their sins. All this because the law of God (his moral law) is written in all of mankinds' hearts. Thus their very works condemn them and proves that they are sinners.
    Every Scripture you use to teach one general resurrection actually teaches two. In fact you have contradicted yourself, when you formerly admitted there were two resurrections separated by a thousand years. The statement is there in the beginning of Rev.20. "Blessed are they that have part in the first resurrection." Then the thousand years will take place.
    Two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust. It is very plain English isn't it? Do you need a grammar book?
    Not after death--no He never said that. Never! What you just stated is heresy.
    1. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven men.
    If one were to apply the Scripture the way that you are applying it, then that is the Scripture you must apply, for one cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit. Reject the Holy Spirit and one cannot be saved.
    2. But that is not what the verse is talking about. I don't believe the sin that this verse is speaking about can be committed today. So no need to harp on it.
    3. If you are going to disregard my interpretation of the verse as above, then you must go back to point one, and say that it is impossible for those that reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit to be saved. That is why they are in hell. They refused to be saved. And when they are in hell, the Holy Spirit will not be there to bring them to repentance.

     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Christ does not go against his word. He has power over death and hell. All who go to hell will remain there forever. That is according to his word.

    Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    It is an everlasting fire; the fire is never quenched, never goes out. The worm is figurative for the conscience. The one there will always remember the chance he had to trust Christ but did not. He rejected the chance he had to be with Christ in heaven. Salvation is not of works. It is a gift to be received by faith. If you reject your only option is hell.
     
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