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John 1:18

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by wfdfiremedic, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. JMSR

    JMSR New Member

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    Ok, but is John 1:18 saying the Son will be declared or the Father?

    Edit: Please don't take that I'm trying to separate the three, as I believe, just as you, they cannot be. I am do fully believe in the Trinity as inseparable.
     
  2. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    The Son.:type:
     
  3. JMSR

    JMSR New Member

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    Considering the first 17 verses how do you gather that? I don't see the Holy Spirit ever being referred to there. And that doesn't separate them.
     
  4. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Um, Brother, the entire Book of John is about the Deity of Christ.
     
  5. JMSR

    JMSR New Member

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    Christ is not the Holy Spirit.
     
  6. wfdfiremedic

    wfdfiremedic New Member

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    This is what really struck me from the link I provided in the above post. |I do not have the education to tell you whether it is a sound argument or not.

    At the Council of Nice in AD325, the Nicene Creed was developed as a compromise
    on the Trinity and the person of Christ that most of the bishops could sign. The council
    was called and supervised by the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine insisted
    on the unity of the Churches, because the Arian controversy had caused a great
    division. And division in the official state religion of Rome could not be tollerated by
    the Church-state marriage initiated by Constantine. In making Christianity the official
    religion of the Roman Empire, Constantine could not permit two separate Christian
    denominations. The Nicene Creed affirmed the deity of Christ. But, its wording leaves
    the origin of the "Son" a bit ambiguous. It implies that the Son was begotten by the
    Father prior to creation. But also condemns those who say that he did not exist before
    He was "begotten." The idea appears to have been that the Son, although eternal,
    was not distinct from the Father until he was "begotten" at some point prior to creation.
    By the time of the Council, the main point of contention between orthodoxy and
    Arianism concerned how the Son came to be "begotten" in ancient times - whether
    He was of the same "substance" as the Father, or whether He was a "God" distinct from
    the Father (that is a sub-deity). The council ruled against Arius. In essence, the Nicene
    Creed says that God the Son was begotten before creation, as the offspring of the
    Father, but of the same "substance" as the Father.
    Even though most of the bishops signed the creed, after the council there was much
    chaos regarding what it meant. Also, those sympathetic to some of Arius' ideas held
    their own councils, and made various decrees and creeds of their own, with varying
    degrees of compromise between Arianism and the Nicene "orthodoxy," but still
    maintaining that the Son was a sub-deity not equal to the Father. The Council
    convened by the Emperor had acheived unity in name only. Not all of the bishops or
    factions of the Church would let go of all elements of Arianism so easily. But what does
    this have to do with our study? The Nicene Creed contained the phrase, "only
    begotten of His Father," but the competing Arian creed contained the phrase, "only
    begotten God." Following is the Nicene Creed, as signed by the majority of the bishops,
    and a portion of the competing creed by the Arian influenced faction.
    The Nicene Creed Arian Creed


    "We believe in one God, the Father
    Almighty, maker of all things visible and
    invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the Son of God, the only-begotten of
    his Father, of the substance of the
    Father, God of God, Light of Light, very
    God of very God, begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the
    Father. By whom all things were made,
    both which be in heaven and in earth.
    Who for us men and for our salvation
    came down [from heaven] and was
    incarnate and was made man. He
    suffered and the third day he rose
    again, and ascended into heaven.
    And he shall come again to judge both
    the quick and the dead. And [we
    believe] in the Holy Ghost. And
    whosoever shall say that there was a
    time when the Son of God was not, or
    that before he was begotten he was
    not, or that he was made of things that
    were not, or that he is of a different
    substance or essence [from the Father]
    or that he is a creature, or subject to
    change or conversion — all that so say,
    the Catholic and Apostolic Church
    anathematizes them."

    NOTE ARIAN CREED:

    "We believe, conformably to the
    evangelical and apostolical tradition,
    in One God, the Father Almighty, the
    Framer, and Maker, and Provider of the
    Universe, from whom are all things. And
    in One Lord Jesus Christ, His Son, Onlybegotten
    God, by whom are all things,
    who was begotten before all ages from
    the Father, God from God, whole from
    whole, sole from sole, perfect from
    perfect, King from King, Lord from Lord,
    Living Word, Living Wisdom, true Light,
    Way, Truth, Resurrection, Shepherd,
    Door, both unalterable and
    unchangeable; exact Image of the
    Godhead, Essence, Will, Power and
    Glory of the Father; the first born of
    every creature, who was in the
    beginning with God, God the Word, as
    it is written in the Gospel, and the Word
    was God’..." 22
    The main difference between the two groups concerns the "substance" of Christ and
    whether He was one with the Father, or whether He was a distinct sub-deity. The Arians
    saw Him as a sub-deity, and also used the expression, "only begotten God" in their
    creed.
     
    #26 wfdfiremedic, Oct 15, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2009
  7. wfdfiremedic

    wfdfiremedic New Member

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    Please note: I am not a KJVO guy trying to stir the pot. However, I am starting to become a Majority text preferred individual.
     
  8. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    You seem to reference John 15:26 (KJV) --
    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
    But the timing of the Holy Spirit's testimony of the Son is very clear: it is future (it would be after the resurrection & ascension of Christ). It should not be anachronistically applied to John 1:18. John is carefully building the theology of the Deity of Christ; John in the Prologue has not yet introduced the Holy Spirit.

    "He" and "him" are pronouns; the must have antecedents. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned before verse 18 of John's Gospel. Therefore, grammatically "he" cannot refer to the Holy Spirit".
     
    #28 franklinmonroe, Oct 15, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2009
  9. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Um, Christ is not another God separate from the Holy Spirit.

    I suppose you'd be one to deny that the Holy Ghost declares the Son?
     
  10. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    I find that to be an error. The Holy Ghost was not pre-existent in John 1:18.

    I also don't find the John prevented the Holy Spirit from anything just because he hadn't been introduced by him.
     
  11. JMSR

    JMSR New Member

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    I never said that, and no I don't deny that the Holy Ghost declares the son.
     
  12. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Harold, you should familiarize yourself with the term 'eisogesis'.
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Eisegesis has always been a common problem.
     
  14. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Then where does your problem understanding John 1:18 precludes chronological order of the existence of the Holy Ghost?
     
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