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John 1: verse 12...alone? or does 1:13 explain it?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jan 9, 2019.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    All men are lost ,lost sheep, lost goats.
    The sheep that belong to Jesus will be saved. God is not willing that they perish....mb read ezk 34 underline who the sheep are, who seeks them and who finds them.keep in mind Jesus is the good shepherd

    Everything I have said is in scripture. My wording is not in scripture, as I have not been called upon to write scripture as the Apostles were.
    You should be careful when you say you could not believe these truths that are found in scripture.
     
    #81 Iconoclast, Jan 13, 2019
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Do not run and hide ITL...are you suggesting the federal headship of Adam is not biblical?
    You cannot run away from 1 cor15:22 so easily trying to pawn it off as just physical death. Why does it link us to Adam? Did Adam only die physically?
    Did Adam die that very day physically? When did spiritual death occur?
    Trying to avoid the teaching by denying the link in Roman's to a theological system is weak.
     
    #82 Iconoclast, Jan 13, 2019
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jon are you implying we are born alive in Adam? You are supporting the error ITL is putting forth? Maybe I am not understanding the semantic games being played here.
     
    #83 Iconoclast, Jan 13, 2019
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  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    That which I bolded gets mishandled all the time. Look at another passage the Christ spoke concerning saving His sheep, the elect...

    The Parable of the Lost Sheep

    10 "See that you don't look down on one of these little ones, because I tell you that in heaven their angels continually view the face of My Father in heaven.
    [11 For the Son of Man has come to save the lost.]
    12 What do you think? If a man has 100 sheep, and one of them goes astray, won't he leave the 99 on the hillside and go and search for the stray?
    13 And if he finds it, I assure you: He rejoices over that sheep more than over the 99 that did not go astray.
    14 In the same way, it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
     
    #84 SovereignGrace, Jan 13, 2019
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I am not implying anything. I meant the comment "tongue in cheek".

    As for my view, I do believe often times some build hard theology on biblical analogy. We are dead in our sin - not stillborn in Adam. I believe we have to stay as close to actual Scripture as possible because the further we get the more prone our understandings are for error.
     
    #85 JonC, Jan 13, 2019
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is, perhaps, a "tightrope" of theology. You've chosen different means for the same word (once anyway) based on your theology. Others, like Calvin, who would probably agree with your theology did not come to the same conclusions as you when it comes to "world". So I don't think either of your positions rest on this passage.

    You have to be careful when you decide to compare ITL's view to a heresy because yours can also be compared to the "serpent seed" theology that resulted from hyper-Calvinism. It is not an honest practice to nudge another's position in the direction you think it may lean.
     
    #86 JonC, Jan 13, 2019
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  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    World rarely means everybody whoever existed, all w/o exception, just as all does not mean all without exception but all w/o distinction.
     
    #87 SovereignGrace, Jan 13, 2019
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    My point is that you are making the decision when it means one thing and when it means another (you are deciding based on your belief what the word means in the passage rather than deciding on what to believe based on the passage itself).

    Typically it refers to mankind. "For God so loved the world", for example, does not mean "For God so loved the elect". It means "For God loved mankind in this way" (as qualified by "whosoever"). Your handing of "all without exception" is nonsense (you are turning a disagreement into a straw-man argument by your handing of @InTheLight 's comments).

    I'm not sure if you can see this, but you are fighting windmills and claiming victory.
     
    #88 JonC, Jan 13, 2019
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What's with you and the "funny" rating, @SovereignGrace ?

    Is this how you "engage" other people who disagree with you?

    I suspect this may serve as an example of the "tribal" mentality I've spoken of previously. Many Calvinists cannot honestly engage opposing views and merely seek an echo chamber. I have seen them dismiss these positions by reprated insults, straw-men arguments, and absurd ratings ("funny" or "praying" on sincere posts).

    My experience is they just want their opponent to go away without anyone realizing they cannot legitimately defend their Calvinism. I don't know if this is you, but your actions are akin to theirs.

    It doesn't offend me (it only speaks to the "tribe" as they gaze upon the windmill "conquered"). But it something I find interesting.

    I always think of 2001 and the monolith at the beginning. A tribe circling something they do not understand.
     
    #89 JonC, Jan 13, 2019
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  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Since they took the ‘x’ off, I either use that or the ‘prayers’ emoji.

    Look, I showed you world means many things, as you can look it up on biblegateway.com

    κόσμος (kosmos)

    (1) pr. order, regular disposition; ornament, decoration, embellishment, 1 Pet. 3:3; (2) the world, the material universe, Mt. 13:35; the world, the aggregate of sensitive existence, 1 Cor. 4:9; the lower world, the earth, Mk. 16:15; the world, the aggregate of mankind, Mt. 5:14; the world, the public, Jn. 7:4; in NT the present order of things, the secular world, Jn. 18:36; the human race external to the Jewish nation, the heathen world, Rom. 11:12, 15; the world external to the Christian body, 1 Jn. 3:1, 13; the world or material system of the Mosaic covenant, Gal. 4:3; Col. 2:8, 20

    World in the Bible is not a monolithic word, as it means different things in different contexts.

    God loves the world yes, but He also hates the wicked. So He either loves everybody w/o exception and hates them at the same time, or world in John 3:16 does not mean all w/o exception.
     
    #90 SovereignGrace, Jan 13, 2019
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  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Also, God is immutable. If He loves everybody w/o exception, then He loves those He casts into hell. Or, He becomes mutable, turns from loving them to hating them, and then punishes them.

    Which is it?
     
    #91 SovereignGrace, Jan 13, 2019
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are echoing what I said. The word can mean different things. You are choosing a meaning based on your theories and not Scripture itself.

    You seem to be confined to a specific mindset, one that is based on your theology. In John 3:16 "world" has to mean mankind as a whole or the last part of the verse is meaningless.

    John Calvin was right on many points, to include this one. Read his commentary for an example of soneone you may appreciate even though you disagree.

    "Word" does not mean "all men without distinction". It also does not mean "the elect".
     
    #92 JonC, Jan 13, 2019
  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Again, if God loves everybody w/o exception, He either punishes those He loves...which makes Him cruel, or He becomes mutable and hates those He once loved.
     
    #93 SovereignGrace, Jan 13, 2019
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Again, you are presenting a false dichotomy based on a fundamental misunderstanding.
     
    #94 JonC, Jan 13, 2019
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  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Again, does God change? Does He go from loving someone to hating them? Please answer. Thanks.
     
    #95 SovereignGrace, Jan 13, 2019
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    God goes from "love to hate" BECAUSE He does not change.

    You are confusing ontological immutability with static immobility.
     
    #96 JonC, Jan 13, 2019
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. Jn 12

    Exactly. 'All anthropos', not just the Jews:

    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring [read DRAW], and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

    23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
    24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9
     
    #97 kyredneck, Jan 13, 2019
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  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    #98 kyredneck, Jan 13, 2019
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  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Zactly:

    20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18

    [add]

    30 I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me; Jn 14

    Who 'came'? How was he made manifest?:

    3 Judas then, having received the band of soldiers, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. Jn 18
     
    #99 kyredneck, Jan 13, 2019
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  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The sheep in this case are the Jews and David their Shepard. He tends the sheep feeding them and taking care of all of them. Actually the Good shepherd in this case is David.
    Then why did you say to keep in mind that Jesus is the shepherd, When it clearly says David is?
    Scripture is absolutely true, How ever The only link to Jesus I see is that His ancestor is David. The owner of the flock is God Himself, not the Shepherd. Jesus is not the Shepherd in this case even though he might be in your belief.
    MB
     
    #100 MB, Jan 13, 2019
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