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Featured John 6:44

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Revmitchell, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I recently saw this verse misused in another thread so I felt compelled to address this verse.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.

    The context of this verse is "come to me" in other words the context is all those who come to Christ. Jesus said in order to come to Christ the person that comes has to have been drawn. It also says that those who have come will be raised up in the last day. It is really very simple.

    What it does not say is that all who are drawn will come. It does not say that all who are drawn will be raised up. "I will raise him" the "him" is the one who comes as that is the context.

    While in verse 44 he is drawn (helko) in verse 65 he is given (didomee). A more clear translation of "given" (if you ask me) is "enabled". "Granted" is a good translation as well. What it doesn't say is "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father drags or makes him.”

    Neither does it tell us how anyone was drawn. Scripture does tell us elsewhere how people are drawn.

    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel. For it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth: to the Jew first and to the Greek.

    So where is the power to save men found? It is found in external sources. In this case we see God uses the preaching of the gospel. In times past we see that the gospel was accompanied by signs and wonders. Again all external sources.

    The gospel is the sole means by which all men everywhere are drawn to Christ.
     
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  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I am unsure of you conclusion.

    You are correct in the drawing authority being the Father. That the unbeliever is given such an endowment upon hearing the preaching of Scriptures by the work of the Holy Spirit as reflected in Romans, which the Lord also stated in this expanded quote of John 6:
    43Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48“I am the bread of life. 49“Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50“This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”​

    You also correctly point that such is from an external source (the preaching of the gospel).

    Therefore, if the authority is that direct purposed choice of who will be drawn, and such drawing is done by the Holy Spirit using the preaching of the Scriptures (for in them is found life and light) have you now embraced a more Calvinistic thinking?

    Are you in agreement that although one may hear (intellectually) what others hear that person will not rightly respond to the gospel because as Christ stated (and you quoted) the Father has not given (endowed, granted) that ability?
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No I don't agree with that nor did I come close to saying anything like that. What I am saying in this passage just because you are drawn it does not say that you will also be raised. The ones to be raised are those who come, not drawn.
     
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  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    That doesn’t seem consistent with verse 44.
     
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  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That is exactly what 44 is saying and I layed out why.
     
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  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    No one comes that is not drawn by the father.

    All drawn by the father will be raised by Christ.

    There is no exclusionary word sandwiched between the two phrases

    You seem to insert what is not evidenced and not even hinted.
     
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  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    This is wrong and it is not in that passage.
     
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This is direct rebellion against revealed truth.
     
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  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    what is not in the passage?

    The fact that no one comes unless the Father draws them?
    The Father sent the Son?
    The fact that all who the Father draws will be lifted up?

    Perhaps you could point out what is not in the passage.
     
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  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The portion that I quoted "All drawn by the father will be raised by Christ."
     
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Seems pretty clear to me.

    "No one can come to Me (Christ) unless the Father draws him (to Christ); and I will raise him (who the Father drew) up on the last day."

    Only those drawn by the Father will come to Christ and Christ will raise them all up on the last day.

    Couldn't be clearer.
     
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  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, it's not like it's a 'baptism for the dead' kind of passage. It's ultra plain.
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.
    So the Scripture according to you does not say that no person can come unless the Father draws them?

    And you are stating that the Son whom the Father sent does not raise up those that the Father draws on the last day?

    Perhaps in your scheme you see an intermediate step of some human volition?

    If you do, then what word is an indication of such a human ability?
     
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  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Honestly you need to read the op.
     
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  15. Use of Time

    Use of Time Well-Known Member
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    Classic Mitch. You simply can’t stand on your own. You post lots of articles but usually fall back to this defensive posturing. This is a discussion forum. Don’t post stuff if you can’t be bothered to participate. Especially when things start to go wrong for you.
     
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  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I think the objection is the idea that all persons drawn by God will come to Christ.

    Verse does not say "all will come to Christ if drawn", it says "no one can come to Christ unless drawn".

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Keep reading. "and I will raise him (who the Father drew) up on the last day."
     
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  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps could attempt to find some conditional aspect of this clear statement by Christ.

    However, The Father draws and there is no conditional statement as to human responsibility found.

    Christ will not neglect a single one drawn but the results will be resurrection, and again there is no conditional statement.

    Those who seem to desire some human conditional statement cannot find it in this verse and must look elsewhere.
     
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    "I will raise him" (who comes) not who is drawn. The context of verse 44 is "who comes" not who is drawn.
     
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  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    You are wrong.

    No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him.

    The context is not "who comes" but NO ONE CAN COME outside of the direct and purposed work of the Father to draw that person.



    That you seem to miss this is quite puzzling.
     
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