A good piece on Romans 11 and God's Sovereign choice.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/bunyan/eternalelection.htm
http://www.biblebb.com/files/bunyan/eternalelection.htm
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John Bunyan on the Sovereign Choice of God
- Thread starter MennoSota
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You need the verses in front and after that for context.
Romans 11:30-36
[30]Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
[31]Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.
[32]For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
[33]Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
[34]For who can know the lord’s thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice?
[35]And who has given him so much that he needs to pay it back?
[36]For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Romans 11:30-36
[30]Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
[31]Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.
[32]For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
[33]Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
[34]For who can know the lord’s thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice?
[35]And who has given him so much that he needs to pay it back?
[36]For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
You are a poor comprehender of the text. Try again bbmember.
Romans 11:30-36
[30]Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
[31]Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.
[32]For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
[33]Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
[34]For who can know the lord’s thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice?
[35]And who has given him so much that he needs to pay it back?
[36]For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Paul is writing to the chosen in Rome. (Romans 1:1,6-7
[1]This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.
[6]And you are included among those Gentiles who have been called to belong to Jesus Christ.
[7]I am writing to all of you in Rome who are loved by God and are called to be his own holy people.May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. )
God was merciful to the elect in Rome, not to everyone. Thus you cannot make verse 32 about universalism.
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God used the blindness of israel to enable Yeahua1 to now be the Messiah over both the Jews and Greeks, so He worked out His plan and purposes to save us in Jesus!
Remember...."all means all, and that's all that all means."
Then, when confronted with Psalm 14 and Romans 3:10-18, that means all the wicked and not all mankind. We battle against this sort of horrible exegesis and hermeneutic all the time.
God forbid!Yeahua1 is the Messiah??? Yikes!!
Those who hold to Calvinism use a non-literal method of interpreting scripture, assigning their own meanings to words. The problem with this is that when someone starts assigning meanings to words other than their normal meaning, a person can decide that a word, phrase, or sentence means anything he wants it to mean. All objectivity concerning the meaning of words is lost. When words lose their meaning, communication ceases.
John 3:16 makes it as clear. Whosoever means whosoever!!
Not true regarding assigning any old meaning. No, we let God's word speak. Sola Scriptura.
One problem I find is that people read the English word "all" and require it to be universal in meaning. However the context will often show that it not a universal, worldwide "all."
Context is very important. It becomes easy to make contrarian arguments if you just cherry pick verses and ignore context. People who are not desiring to be objective will often resort to this poor form of hermeneutics.
The problem i have with the reformed camp is that they squeeze verses into their theological framework, regardless of context. They don't *really* have the Scriptures "Speak for themselves", They make the Scripture fit some aspect of TULIP, even if they contort the text.
The principle for each point is there to be found though!
Of course it is LOL!
Just like if I believed in post mill doctrine...I can *make* scripture fit that framework if I contort the text
No more than Pelagian's or Semi-pelagian's. When it comes to reconciliation Calvinists are much better at scriptural honesty. When it comes to prophecy, covenant theology creates some allegories that are head scratching.
Free-will theory is entirely man-made with cherry picked verses to try create something the Bible does not teach. Such poor hermeneutics is inexcusable.
I agree, poor hermeneutics is inexcusable.
Does "whosoever" mean something else? If so, what is your meaning if this word?
Whosoever does not imply free-will. It means that you and I do not know who will be made alive in Christ. The context around the verse let's us know this.
Look at verse 6 for starters. We see here who gives birth to spiritual life. It is similar to Ephesians 2 where God makes us alive. Now sandwich verse 19 where we see that people love darkness. The context helps us understand the "whosoever" in verse 16.
John 3:6-21
[6]Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.
[7]So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’
[8]The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”
[9]“How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked.
[10]Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things?
[11]I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony.
[12]But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
[13]No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.
[14]And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
[15]so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
[16]“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
[17]God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[18]“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.
[19]And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
[20]All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
[21]But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”
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