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John MacArthur and Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Dec 30, 2007.

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  1. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Too Bad

    Lou, I read your article and it seems you have exchanged the word "exchanged" with barter. If I am right you are being a bit dishonest and your debate with MacArther invalid on that alone. It just so happens I listen to him this morining before I went to church and it amazed me the message was on Lordship salvation. He was dead on! I would not waste TOO much time debating you or anyone on what he said. The creature you discribe, one who claims King Jesus, Lord of his life, and then not live it is not found in my bible.
    I had to come back and edit this after reading the second articule that you linked too. I guess I can see what your saying but think what you are worried about is not justified. MacArthur is not teaching works =salvation but that salvation produces works. Can you show me a repentive person in the bible who did not show Christ?
     
    #21 Timtoolman, Jan 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2008
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Consider, then, the following from another LS advocate. The "works" are clearly interwoven with the message, and are highlighted below. This sounds awfully like what Macarthur teaches, but JM does it in an even moreson veiled manner as to not be as blunt as Mr. Goodman. It is no secret that LS teaches the requirement of a lost person to make a upfront commitment of discipleship...an IMPOSSIBILITY for a lost person to do apart from the Holy Spirit who indwells believers!

    The following text is taken from an article titled "Warning: The Day Of The Lord Is Near" by Heath C. Goodman of Alarm Ministries in Lindale, Texas:
    "You have offended God's holiness and broken His laws! You know what is wrong by natural instinct, "the law having been written in your heart" yet you chose to rebel against the conscience God gave you. You are guilty, guilty, guilty! You are sinful before Him and deserving of eternal damnation. You must be punished...
    But Good News, my friend! There's hope! Jesus took the punishment! The gospel is simply this-
    Jesus, the Lamb of God took upon Himself your debt of sin. He paid for it in full. You can be forgiven and have fellowship with the Holy God that you once offended with your sin.
    However, to receive God's forgiveness, eternal salvation and blessings, you are required to believe the gospel and confess your sins in sorrow and regret. Do not just confess them generally. Be specific in confessing what you have done to offend His holiness.
    Show Him that you are sincerely sorry for your sins by MAKING A COMMITMENT NEVER TO PRACTICE THOSE SINS AGAIN! This is real repentance. "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:17,). Put your faith in His grace to keep you from falling. He will keep you!




    It is not enough to just "say a little prayer'. Many preachers will stand in judgment for leading so many in a false conversion. How many souls are in hell right now who thought they were alright because the preacher didn't want to scare them away with a challenge and a call to a total commitment to Christ? I will not tell you a cheap and easy gospel message. Jesus requires you to give your ALL!
    "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not ALL that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:33). "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy strength, and with ALL thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27).




    ​
    Many of you have hardened your heart to God and the gospel. You have heard the preaching of Jesus many times before. But you've never made a total commitment to follow Jesus. You do not care that He died for you. You are in bitterness of soul and "nigh unto cursing." I warn you! Do not harden your heart to God's love and mercy! There is no other choice left to you but His wrath and indignation! I plead with you to fall on the Rock and be broken before the rock falls on you and you are crushed to powder! (see Matthew 21:44). This is a very serious decision you must make. Your eternal destiny depends upon it!
    On Judgment day you will be without excuse. You have been warned of the Day of the Lord and told the Good News to avoid God's wrath. Jesus loves you... enough to warn you and give you a way out. Will you choose His loving way or go your own way to destruction? The ball is in your court now. What will you do?" -Quote taken from an article titled "Warning: The Day Of The Lord Is Near" by Heath C. Goodman of Alarm Ministries in Lindale, Texas






    ​
     
    #22 webdog, Jan 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2008
  3. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac New Member

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    Tim:

    I appreciate your notes.

    If the impression came across that I flipped the two words then maybe I need to be more clear about that. If you look in a dictionary you will find the following under the definition of “exchange,” to make an exchange; engage in bartering, replacing, or substituting one thing for another.

    Here is the definition of “barter,” to trade by exchange; to exchange in trade.

    Therefore, the words “exchange” and “barter” are virtually interchangeable.

    The word, “exchange” is used by MacArthur in his book TGATJ. He uses it in the context of the lost man making an upfront whole-hearted commitment to the Lordship of Christ to be born again.

    Here is a sample of JM's usage of “exchange.”

    JM is speaking of what he believes is required for the reception of eternal life. He teaches salvation is conditional upon an “exchange.” LS teaches that if the lost man will bring an upfront commitment to the Lordship of Christ he will in “exchange” from the Lord receive salvation. That is by definition bartering.

    The theme runs like a thread through JM’s LS books. What Dr. MacArthur does is demand from a sinner the upfront, or as Pastor Mike Harding noted, “frontloading faith” (with) promises of surrender, self-denial, commitment to follow, to be willing to die for Jesus’ sake, in “exchange” for salvation.

    Here is another from MacArthur,
    Sine qua non- means indispensable condition. So, let’s look at that statement by MacArthur, and unravel what he is saying.
    As for JM’s message on the radio this morning, I did not hear it so I can’t comment on it.

    You wrote,
    I can appreciate that and I share your concern, but I don't know where I describe the creature you refer to. Nothing is more frustrating to me than the man who professes Christ, but lives more like the Devil. I am all for the teaching that genuine results (“good works”) should follow a genuine conversion (Eph. 2:8-10). LS, however, demands an upfront commitment to those “good works” for the reception of eternal life.

    Here is how Dr. Ernest Pickering addressed this valid concern you raised, which appears in my book on LS.

    You noted that you have read me at SI and here and have enjoyed some of what I have written. If you have been reading me since I first began commenting on line in mid 2006 you probably know I am careful and document what I deal with, just as I have done in this comment. It seems that you may have misunderstood my notes in the article you linked to.

    Finally, I took the time to draft this reply because I appreciated your tone and I trust you are open to evaluating what JM is writing in is books on Lordship Salvation. There are hundreds of pastors and Christian leaders across a broad spectrum of evangelical Christianity who are disturbed by the LS interpretation of the Gospel as it is taught by John MacArthur. Even the IFCA that MacArthur is a member of has raised grave concerns with what he wrote in TGATJ. Here are links to a series I did on that issue.

    IFCA Statement on: The Nature of Saving Faith

    Insights from the IFCA Interview With John MacArthur

    I hope you find these helpful.


    LM

    PS: Feel free to drop comments at my blog under articles that you have questions about. Btw, I grew up just south of Pontiac MI. Very near you.
     
    #23 Lou Martuneac, Jan 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2008
  4. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Batteries getting low

    Web and Lou give me time to digest this.
     
    #24 Timtoolman, Jan 6, 2008
  5. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac New Member

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    Another Example

    Tim/Web/All:

    I wrote the following almost one year ago. It is another exmaple of the commitment in exchange message that is the Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel.

    Another Example of Lordship's Man-Centered Message


    LM
     
    #25 Lou Martuneac, Jan 6, 2008
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    But you were predestined by God before the foundation of the world to make that "error" so that your intellectual dishonesty would be exposed.:smilewinkgrin:

    And it does just that because it is clear Gal.2:21 doesn't have anything to do with John MacArthur because he clearly and repeatedly affirms salvation by grace through faith.

    Galatians 2:20 supports his position.

    How embarrassing for you!

    Just like Al Gore saying his favorite bible verse is John 16:3.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #26 canadyjd, Jan 6, 2008
  7. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac New Member

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    WebDog:

    That sermon by Goodman is IMO as antithetical to the biblical plan of salvation as I have read from a LS advocate in years. Can you link me to the site where the text appears?

    Canadydj:

    Would you indicate whether or not you find Goodman's message on salvation sound and correct or not?


    LM
     
    #27 Lou Martuneac, Jan 6, 2008
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I urge you to read John MacArthur to find out what John MacArthur teaches and believes: Here's his website: http://www.gty.org/

    The bottom line is this. MacArthur is a "calvinist". Lou Martuneac rejects everything about the so called "5 Points" of calvinism. Lou can't debate MacArthur on the merits of scripture, so he is attempting to assasinate his character with baseless accusations.

    MacArthur believes in salvation by grace through faith. He believes salvation is completely a work of God, from start to finish. He believes repentance and faith are gifts of God's grace. He believes repentance precedes faith. All of these beliefs are carefully supported by scripture, in context.

    MacArthur believes that God, who knows how to give good gifts to His children, would not give "faith" as a gift that was deficient in anyway. Since God requires Lordship, God will always give faith that includes Lordship.

    Whenever MacArthur speaks of "exchanges" taking place, or having faith that includes commitment to Lordship, you have to understand that he has already made the case that "faith" is a gift of God's grace. Any "exchanges" that take place, therefore, do so by the power of God and at His direction.

    This is why I say that Lou Martuneac is intellectually dishonest. He will not engage the scriptures mentioned. He attempts to dismiss all of MacArthur's beliefs on Lordship as "extra-biblical", despite MacArthur's very deligent use of scripture to support what he teaches.

    He makes laughable accusations, i.e. that MacArthur teaches a "works-based salvation that frustrates grace", despite MacArthur's very careful affirmation of the doctrine of Salvation by Grace, through faith...and that man can do no works to earn salvation, and that Salvation is comletely a work of God from start to finish.

    He makes outrageous statements, comparing MacArthur's teachings to heretics, essentially calling him a false teacher that is leading people to hell.

    Lou Martuneac is swimming in an ocean of intellectually dishonesty on this issue. Be careful if you read anything he has written, that you are not pulled out into his ocean with him.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #28 canadyjd, Jan 6, 2008
  9. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac New Member

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    Canadyjd:

    Would you indicate whether or not Goodman's message (WebDog posted above) on salvation is, in your opinion, sound and correct, or not?


    LM
     
    #29 Lou Martuneac, Jan 6, 2008
  10. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac New Member

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    Tim/All:

    Do your own study and please understand a few items.

    1) Canadyjd has never read any of JM’s 4 major books on LS. He has relied on what has become his mantra based on a very brief LS overview that appears at one of JM’s sites.

    2) Canadyjd is right in that JM’s LS is drawn from the circle-logic of five point Calvinism. JM, as indicated by jd, also believes that regeneration (salvation) precedes faith and repentance. This is one of the extra-biblical views that I refer to. I would also add that JM and LS advocates confuse and blend the separate doctrines of discipleship and salvation.

    3) Let’s take a brief look at jd’s two statements in which he defines what he believes is JM's interpretation of God’s plan of salvation. Plus, because of his vigorous defense of JM's position, as he understands it, we will conclude that this is the personal position of jd as well:

    Here we see jd believes God gives the gift of faith to His children. This for him means that God is giving “faith as a gift” to one who has already been born (again) into the family of God.

    But then jd either confuses or contradicts himself by claiming God will only “give faith that includes Lordship.” This is puzzling! Does he mean God gives faith to one who has already become one of His children, but then only after he will also make a commitment to the Lordship of Christ? That would be a two-step approach to salvation. But it appears that this is what jd considers the Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Now jd recognizes and is acknowledging that JM is calling for an “exchange” of commitment as a core of his LS view of the Gospel. This is what I referred to as a barter system. Jd’s statement without question creates a works based message and frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21).

    However, jd, tries to dismiss the obvious implication of MacArthur’s LS “exchange” of “whole-hearted commitment” for salvation by weaving into his interpretation of God’s plan for salvation the Calvinistic presupposition of regeneration before faith and faith is a gift teaching.

    Brother George Zeller effectively and biblically refutes these extra-biblical teachings in his articles:

    Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

    The Danger of Teaching that Faith is the Gift of God
    (See JM quotes in this article)


    LM
     
    #30 Lou Martuneac, Jan 6, 2008
  11. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac New Member

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    Canadyjd:

    Would you indicate whether or not Goodman's article (WebDog posted above) on salvation is, in your opinion, sound and correct, or not?


    LM
     
    #31 Lou Martuneac, Jan 7, 2008
  12. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    This is SCARY! You can confess your sins till you are "blue in the face" but if you haven't repented of SELF UNTO GOD for salvation, it won't matter how many sins you confess and quit doing!

    More later but this author's is merely an expression of sanctification, not of justification.

    skypair
     
    #32 skypair, Jan 7, 2008
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    To all: To find out what John MacArthur believes concerning the "exchange" that takes place in salvation, please go to his website:

    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/50-32

    Here are a few quotes that demonstrate the continuing intellectual dishonesty of Lou Martuneac:


    And to clarify, MacArthur adds:


    MacArthur supports every statement with scripture.

    Any "exchange" that takes place during salvation, does so by the power of God's grace and mercy and at His direction.

    MacArthur clearly embraces salvation by Grace through faith. Do not be decieved by those taking comments out of context to promote their agenda.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #33 canadyjd, Jan 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2008
  14. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Lou and web, I am not sure the JM is preaching anything other then the gospel. I do not like the word barter because we do not barter with God on salvation He does and has determind what is salvation. We don't make a deal with Him. You can have exchange without barter. As there are always different definitions for words depending on context I do not believe you can exchange the words (exchange for barter) for all contexts.
    Second what is different from the messages posted then when Christ said to the rich ruler that he must give all? When Christ was lifted up to me as "Lord of all" that is what attracted me. What do I have in my life or even my life, that God does not own? Did I realize this before I was saved (that this was the message of the gospel)? Yes, I think that is why I resisted for so long. Bible tells us the we are to present our bodies a living sacrafice. Is it wrong to present that?
     
    #34 Timtoolman, Jan 7, 2008
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Tim, does a lost person know or capable of giving "all"? How does an unregenerated person do that?
     
    #35 webdog, Jan 7, 2008
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Awaiting on an answer, too. That article is LS in it's purest.
     
    #36 webdog, Jan 7, 2008
  17. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Man Web you are making me take a double look at regeneration first?! What do you say then to Jesus telling the rich man that he had to give all? Was that unfair way of Jesus telling him that he would have to forsake this world to follow him?
     
    #37 Timtoolman, Jan 7, 2008
  18. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    By God's Holy Spirit sovereignly regenerating them.
     
    #38 reformedbeliever, Jan 7, 2008
  19. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    You have been given an answer.... you just don't like it because it is God giving man faith in regeneration.



    It does not surprise me that you or Lou can't see it.
     
    #39 reformedbeliever, Jan 7, 2008
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    He did not reply to Goodman's article...what Lou asked. Please read that to which you are replying.
     
    #40 webdog, Jan 7, 2008
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