John the Baptist

The Holy Spirit is the Webster's Dictionary?
But you are using it to give you discernment aren't you?

Don't you think it is more wise to use scripture to interpret the words and not an ENGLISH dictionary? At least use a Greek dictionary.

If this is God wooing, why does He fail to get everybody? He's not a good "wooer".

If he does draw everybody Diane than EVERYBODY will be "lifted up" with Him to heaven then also if you go by the context. Are you a universalist?

Your "Robots" analogy is tiresome. Man is free, your understanding of the will is shallow at best. Man's FREE WILL is the problem not the solution. Man will always choose what he desires. And man will always choose evil. They are not robots. God's enabling those who by His grace only gives man the will to DESIRE Him, and with that, they freely WILL choose Him. EVEN in the same verse Jesus said no man CAN come to me. He is not ABLE to. In context also a couple verses earlier Jesus said ALL that the father GIVES me WILL COME TO ME. But I will LIFT HIM UP. You have some serious exegetical inconsistencies if you believe that God draws (woos) all.

[ June 28, 2005, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: rc ]

 

Song of Solomon 1:4 Draw me away! The Daughters of Jerusalem We will run after you. The Shulamite The king has brought me into his chambers. The Daughters of Jerusalem We will be glad and rejoice in you. We will remember your love more than wine. The Shulamite Rightly do they love you.

Jeremiah 31:3 The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: "Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.

Hosea 11:4 I drew them with gentle cords, With bands of love, And I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck. I stooped and fed them.


Strong's Number: 1670 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
elkuo probably akin to (138)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Helkuo 2:503,227
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hel-koo'-o Verb

Definition
to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

 

Thanks for making my point. In all instances God does the action to allow man to do what God pleases according to HIS will.

 

Romans 9:19-20 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?

 

I'm sorry rc, my mother warned me about Calvinist.

Draw, impel: To urge to action through moral pressure;

verb

To stir to action or feeling: egg on, excite, foment, galvanize, goad, incite, inflame, inspire, instigate, motivate, move, pique, prick, prod, prompt, propel, provoke, set off, spur, stimulate, touch off, trigger, work up. See cause/effect, excite/bore/interest.
To set or keep going: actuate, drive, mobilize, move, propel, run. See move/halt.

עברית‬ (Hebrew)
v. tr. - ‮דחף, זירז, המריץ‬

 

You haven't gotten anywhere. The scripture is what demands the meaning. And the funny thing is, I still don't see WOOING in any of your descriptions!

Also, you haven't exegeted any of the texts to promote your understanding of the word. Spitting out texts means nothing. I have given you the REASONS by SCRIPTURE why the word means to DRAG. Also I have given you the exegesis of the text that describes the reason of the understanding of the word. You haven't given any reason at all why the word in the CONTEXT would mean to woo and not DRAG. Or the implications of the text if it does mean woo i.e. if God woos everybody, The text demands that EVERYBODY then would be lifted up.... Please explain this.

 

Well I'm being wooed into the kitchen by my late arriving husband who drew me unto himself back 35 blessed years ago so I cannot continue our diatribe at this point. Not a hit and run but a wifely duty.

 

ha ha ha....

 

Try holding your breath!

 

Hey Wes.... this looks familiar!.... Just like your answering me about Calvinism being condemned by a council... I guess as long as you play dumb long enough and enough posts go by this will just be passed over also... Typical Arminian, get em cornered and they change the subject or start ad homs....

 

Diane,
I see your done with dinner.... So?
Does God draw (woo) all men? And if so, then EVERYONE will be lifted up? Solve the problem yet? Or the robot problem?

 

Yes, God draws all unto HIM, unwilling that ANY should perish, Loves the whole world, etc.

Romans 2:4
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Romans 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

LEAD: Greek Word: A[gw (notice, not caught in a net and dragged into a salvific condition)

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 71 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ago a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ago None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ag'-o Verb

Definition
to lead, take with one
to lead by laying hold of, and this way to bring to the point of destination: of an animal
to lead by accompanying to (into) a place
to lead with one's self, attach to one's self as an attendant
to conduct, bring
to lead away, to a court of justice, magistrate, etc.
to lead,
to lead, guide, direct
to lead through, conduct to: to something
to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind
to pass a day, keep or celebrate a feast, etc.
to go, depart

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Same word used in these verses. Greek Word: A[gw

1Co 12:2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the dumb idols, however you were led.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bring ing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings .

2Ti 3:6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,

2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Pick up Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for service.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

Ga 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Ac 5:21 And upon hearing this, they entered into the temple about daybreak, and began to teach. Now when the high priest and his associates had come, they cal led the Council together, even all the Senate of the sons of Israel, and sent orders to the prison house for them to be brought.

Ac 5:26 Then the captain went along with the officers and proceeded to bring them back without violence (for they were afraid of the people, lest they should be stoned).

Ac 5:27 And when they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. And the high priest questioned them,

Ac 6:12 And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came upon him and dragged him away, and brought him before the Council.

Ac 8:32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: "He was led as a sheep to slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He does not open His mouth.

Ac 9:2 and asked for letters from him to the syna go gues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Ac 9:21 And all those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying, "Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who cal led on this name, and who had come here for the purpose of bring ing them bound before the chief priests?"

Ac 9:27 But Barnabas took hold of him and brought him to the apostles and described to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had talked to him, and how at Damascus he had spoken out boldly in the name of Jesus.

Ac 11:26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And it came about that for an entire year they met with the church, and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first cal led Christians in Antioch.

Ac 13:23 "From the offspring of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

Ac 17:15 Now those who conducted Paul brought him as far as Athens; and receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him as soon as possible, they departed.

Ac 17:19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, "May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?

Ac 18:12 But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat,

Ac 19:37 "For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of our goddess.

Ac 19:38 "So then, if Demetrius and the craftsmen who are with him have a complaint against any man, the courts are in session and proconsuls are available; let them bring charges against one another.

Ac 20:12 And they took away the boy alive, and were greatly comforted.

Ac 21:16 And some of the disciples from Caesarea also came with us, taking us to Mnason of Cyprus, a disciple of long standing with whom we were to lodge.

Ac 21:34 But among the crowd some were shouting one thing and some another, and when he could not find out the facts on account of the uproar, he ordered him to be brought into the barracks.

Ac 22:5 as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished.

Ac 23:10 And as a great dissension was developing, the commander was afraid Paul would be torn to pieces by them and ordered the troops to go down and take him away from them by force, and bring him into the barracks.

Ac 23:18 So he took him and led him to the commander and said, "Paul the prisoner cal led me to him and asked me to lead this young man to you since he has something to tell you."

Ac 23:31 So the soldiers, in accordance with their orders, took Paul and brought him by night to Antipatris.

Ac 25:6 And after he had spent not more than eight or ten days among them, he went down to Caesarea; and on the next day he took his seat on the tribunal and ordered Paul to be brought.

Ac 25:17 "And so after they had assemb led here, I made no delay, but on the next day took my seat on the tribunal, and ordered the man to be brought.

Ac 25:23 And so, on the next day when Agrippa had come together with Bernice, amid great pomp, and had entered the auditorium accompanied by the commanders and the prominent men of the city, at the command of Festus, Paul was brought in.

Joh 1:42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas" (which is translated Peter).

Joh 7:45 The officers therefore came to the chief priests and Pharisees, and they said to them, "Why did you not bring Him?"

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the midst,

Joh 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees him who was formerly blind.

Joh 10:16 "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd.

Joh 11:7 Then after this He said to the disciples, "Let us go to Judea again."

Joh 11:15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him."

Joh 11:16 Thomas therefore, who is cal led Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with Him."

Joh 14:31 but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

Joh 18:13 and led Him to Annas first; for he was father-in-law of Caiaphas, who was high priest that year.

Joh 18:28 They led Jesus therefore from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early; and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium in order that they might not be defi led, but might eat the Passover.

Joh 19:4 And Pilate came out again, and said to them, "Behold, I am bring ing Him out to you, that you may know that I find no guilt in Him."

Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha.

Lu 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led about by the Spirit in the wilderness

Lu 4:9 And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here;

Lu 4:29 and they rose up and cast Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff.

Lu 4:40 And while the sun was setting, all who had any sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and laying His hands on every one of them, He was healing them.

Lu 10:34 and came to him, and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

Lu 18:40 And Jesus stopped and commanded that he be brought to Him; and when he had come near, He questioned him,

Lu 19:27 "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

Lu 19:30 saying, " Go into the village opposite you, in which as you enter you will find a colt tied, on which no one yet has ever sat; untie it, and bring it here.

Lu 19:35 And they brought it to Jesus, and they threw their garments on the colt, and put Jesus on it.

Lu 22:54 And having arrest ed Him, they led Him away, and brought Him to the house of the high priest; but Peter was following at a distance.

Lu 23:1 Then the whole body of them arose and brought Him before Pilate.

Lu 23:32 And two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him.

Lu 24:21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was go ing to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened.

Mr 1:38 And He said to them, "Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, in order that I may preach there also; for that is what I came out for."

Mr 13:11 "And when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.

Mr 14:42 "Arise, let us be go ing; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!"

Mt 10:18 and you shall even be brought before go vernors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

Mt 21:2 saying to them, " Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied there and a colt with her; untie them, and bring them to Me.

Mt 21:7 and brought the donkey and the colt, and laid on them their garments, on which He sat.

Mt 26:46 "Arise, let us be go ing; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!"

 

Isaiah 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked-- But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How sad it is that all don't accept this precious sacrifice but most do not.

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

Greek Word: UiJoqesiva
Transliterated Word: huiothesia/ Adoption: the nature and condition of the true disciples in Christ, who by receiving the Spirit of God into their souls become sons of God

 

Wow, that's alot of verses that doesn't have anything to do with the question.

IF He draws all men in 6.44 THEN He will by the proceeding phrase "lift him up".

So back to my question, If He draws all men, then you believe that what the VERSE says, that The father will lift up ALL MEN. So you are a universalist.

 

Leads / draws... those verses (showing the use of said word) dispell your allegation that the Holy Spirit forcefully drags us into his net of salvation.

Do you think so highly of yourself that you think God chose such a mere man for salvation over another while cursing another to eternal damnation and the lake of fire?

 

Calling me a universalist is the same as doubting my salvation and grounds for banning. Tread gently. I do not take kindly to such words and will not let them go unnoticed.

I am not an universalist in any sense of the word.

Just because I believe God offers the blood sacrifice of Christ Jesus to all does not mean I believe all or most will accept that free gift of salvation! My beliefs match the majority of our administrators and moderators.

 

ANSWER the question Diane.

Be honest with the scripture.

FINISH a thought for a change.

You can not pick and choose to take from one part of a verse and leave the other part for nothing because it doesn't serve your purpose, that's imposing your philosophy on scripture instead of scripture demanding your understanding.

What about the lifting up of those drawn? PLEASE answer DIRECTLY... It is a basic exegetical process.

 

rc called me a universalist. He's the one who owes an answer/ apology. That is questioning my salvation and is not allowed on this board.

I have repeatedly answered your questions. You just keep changing the words. Woo, draw, lead all amount to the same thing. Read the scripture provided.

Minister eh?