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Featured Joseph Henry Thayer

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jun 4, 2021.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Some on here have attacked me for saying that Dr Thayer, of the Greek lexicon, was a Unitarian. They have sought to show, without any success, that Thayer, could not have been a Unitarian, because he was a Congregationalist. I don't see how this can be concluded, as there are those who are "Baptist", who deny the Bible is the Word of God, deny the Holy Trinity, and Deity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit!

    In the first place, Thayer enlanged the Greek lexicon of Grimm Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti, which Thayer also "revised". It is clear from this publication, which now appears under Thayer's own name, that there are comments under various word definitions, that deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Why would someone who himself was a Bible-believing Christian, who believed in the Deity of Jesus Christ, and that of the Holy Spirit, undertake such a work, and not demand that either, these comments of Grimm, are changed, or, that Thayer was allowed to add his own comments, showing his objections, on Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.? No where in the preface or anywhere else, does Thayer say anything against what Grimm says!

    Secondly, Thayer has also edited a work by Dr Ezra Abbot, "The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel, and Other Critical Essays", which is a work by the Unitarian Press! Abbot, was a Unitarian, and a friend and mentor of Thayer! In this work, the Deity of Jesus Christ, in a number of passages, is criticised, like John 1:1; Acts 20:28; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13, etc. Again, WHY would someone who is supposed to be a Trinitarian Christian, as some suppose Thayer is, be asked to edit and revise a work by a leading Unitarian, Abbot? WHY would Thayer even accept such a task?

    This is from the Preface to this book, which is written by Thayer in 1888:

    "Besides the elaborate discussions of debatable textual questions, which render the volume indispensable to the professional student, room has been found for a few of those papers in which Dr. Abbot addresses general readers in a style alike lucid, attractive, and authoritative. But, after all, to those privileged to know the variety and extent of his learning, the retentiveness and accuracy of his memory, the penetration and fairness of his judgment, this volume will seem but an indequate and fragmentary memorial"

    WOULD someone who was a supposed believer in the Holy Trinity, as some think Thayer was, EVER write this about a person he KNOWS to be a Unitarian? Thayer's words are a commendation of this anti Trinitarian book!!!

    This EVIDENCE should prove to any honest person, the real theology of Thayer, and that he could NOT have himself believed in the Trinity, or the Deity of Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit.

    I am providing a direct link to this work by Abbot, so that you can check for yourself the FACTS!

    The authorship of the fourth gospel [microform] : and other critical essays : Abbot, Ezra, 1819-1884 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
     
    #1 SavedByGrace, Jun 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  2. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    Perhaps you should not disregard the evidence that you have already heard, like from Logos1560 post number #24 from your last thread.2 Corinthians 3 and The Deity of The Holy Spirit

    Also, regarding the deity of Christ, the following comments seem to be the clincher:
    p. 260 -- "He [Thayer] writes to a pastor desirous of reading up on the deity of Christ: 'But in preparing to present from the pulpit any doctrine of the truth of which I was thoroughly convinced (like the present doctrine) I have usually found myself most helped by reading the ablest books on the other side. By doing this, one not only best discovers what the actual difficulties of an unbeliever are, but has suggested to him (often) the best methods of meeting them.' " (italics Thayer's). "

    He was probably witnessing to Abott. You know, doing good.

    In fact here is the full post by logos 1560 to remind you.

    "One believer who is a scholar researched this matter and could not find sound evidence to support that claim.
    Here are the results of this person's research:

    "Of interest in this regard (from my research) is that a Unitarian encyclopedia does not mention Thayer among their number; also, one finds in The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (Grand Rapids: Baker reprint, 1950), 11:314, the entry "Thayer, Joseph Henry. Congregationalist...."

    As to the Congregational issue, I also have discovered the following comments in the article, C. J. H. Ropes, "John Henry Thayer: The Man and His Work," Biblical World 19 (1902)
    [additional note: Ropes himself (1866-1933) "was born in Salem, Massachusetts. He graduated from Harvard College in 1889 and Andover Theological Seminary in 1893. In 1901, he was ordained a minister in the Congregational Church" -- which means he should have been swift to identify Thayer as a Unitarian were such indeed the case]:

    p. 249 -- "While as a young man he usually attended Dr. Gannett's church (Unitarian) with his father, yet his own views followed those of his mother, and led him into the Congregational church."
    p. 250(?) -- "...was pastor of the Crombie Street Congregational Church in Salem, Massachusetts for five years"

    As for his doctrinal views, especially in relation to the deity of Christ, the same article speaks of him as:
    p. 264-5 -- "one who in wide erudition and advanced scholarship 'knew it all,' and yet held fast to every vital point of the old faith."

    Also, regarding the deity of Christ, the following comments seem to be the clincher:
    p. 260 -- "He [Thayer] writes to a pastor desirous of reading up on the deity of Christ: 'But in preparing to present from the pulpit any doctrine of the truth of which I was thoroughly convinced (like the present doctrine) I have usually found myself most helped by reading the ablest books on the other side. By doing this, one not only best discovers what the actual difficulties of an unbeliever are, but has suggested to him (often) the best methods of meeting them.' " (italics Thayer's).

    p.265 -- [quoting from another of Thayer's letters:] "The really strong argument in support of Christ's pre-existence has always seemed to me to be the concurrent, yet ... independent, representations of the biblical writers, not even excepting the synoptists .... The personage they portray forbids his classification with ordinary men, and leaves so unique and exalted a conception of his relation to the Father that the explicit declarations of the fourth gospel awaken no surprise in the ordinary reader."

    Given all of these parameters, it seems that -- contrary to Martin/Klann or the Baker lexicon "publisher's preface" or the various KJVO/TRO propaganda against Thayer and his lexicon -- Thayer in fact was a Congregationalist and also held to the deity of Christ. "

    2 Corinthians 3 and The Deity of The Holy Spirit
     
    #2 Conan, Jun 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  3. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    Again, Thayer's own words prove you wrong. From logos1560's original article post #24
    2 Corinthians 3 and The Deity of The Holy Spirit
    "
    p.265 -- [quoting from another of Thayer's letters:] "The really strong argument in support of Christ's pre-existence has always seemed to me to be the concurrent, yet ... independent, representations of the biblical writers, not even excepting the synoptists .... The personage they portray forbids his classification with ordinary men, and leaves so unique and exalted a conception of his relation to the Father that the explicit declarations of the fourth gospel awaken no surprise in the ordinary reader. "
     
  4. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    No one is attacking you. Some think you are in error and are trying to show you that.
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Now disprove what I have said
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    This does not disprove what I have said in the OP
     
  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    They are not challenging the facts (Thayer wrote what he wrote), rather they are challenging your conclusions from those facts. They presented other quotes from Thayer that support alternative explanations for why he would associate with a Unitarian and other quotes that indicate Thayer supports the deity of Jesus.

    So they HAVE offered legitimate challenges to your conclusions that you have not addressed.
     
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  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that you or the other others who are arguing for Thayer know what you are talking about. It is very clear from Thayers contribution to the book by Abbot that shows that he was Unitarian. Prove me wrong from this
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    On this BB?
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What I understand, Joseph Henry Thayer was a Congragationalist and a professed Unitarian. Known to deny concept of inerrancy of the Bible. Worked on the Revised Version of the Bible. (The Americal edition being known as the American Standard Version.)
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Some people just can't understand that a person can be a Baptist or Pentecostal or whatever and still believe in heresy!
     
  12. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    A quick bit of history: New England Unitarians evolved from the Congregational - originally the Pilgrims and Puritans.
    The Pilgrims/Puritans/Congregational which was originally based on a literal reading of the Holy Bible, Liberalizing Unitarians rejected the Trinitarian belief and became Unitarians.
     
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    A far more useful thread would be to specifically identify the flawed assertions in Thayer's, and present the correct view quoting other lexicons.
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    You can add that info here
     
  15. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    Also, regarding the deity of Christ, the following comments seem to be the clincher:
    p. 260 -- "He [Thayer] writes to a pastor desirous of reading up on the deity of Christ: 'But in preparing to present from the pulpit any doctrine of the truth of which I was thoroughly convinced (like the present doctrine) I have usually found myself most helped by reading the ablest books on the other side. By doing this, one not only best discovers what the actual difficulties of an unbeliever are, but has suggested to him (often) the best methods of meeting them.' " (italics Thayer's)
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Thayer did NOT believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. Your quotes are not what he believed
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    You have failed to say why Thayer would have in any way been involved in the book by a leading Unitarian Ezra Abbot? Read the preface of the book and see how he praises a Unitarian work
     
  18. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    They were his own quotes.
     
  19. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Can you deal with # 17
     
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