Just how LIMITED is the ATONEMENT?

The Gospel is freely offered to all, even though all are not able to believe it. The free offer of the Gospel is not contingent on human ability.

 

the atoning work of the Lord upon the Cross is indeed sufficient to save any and all who would come unto him and be saved, yet the problem is the sinner whose heart and mind is darkened by their sinful state will not be able to respond to the offer of salvation, unless/until the Lord effectual applies the Grace of the Cross unto their behalf, openning up their hearts/minds to receive Him...

So the work of the Cross can and will save all who come unto Jesus, its just that those whom are able to come unto Him and get saved will be elected and chosen by God!

His death has provided that ALL might be saved, its just that all who will get saved are those whom God has effectually applied grace to!

 

...and the highlighted (by me) is the part they have trouble with. That, and not rightly and contextually quoting the theologians they cut and paste, nor understanding what they, nor the Scriptures mean, contextually, concerning all.

I have no clue why people struggle with this. "How do you know if you're elect, or not?" they ask.

Look, if Christ has done a work of regeneration in your heart, if you came to faith in Him, you have been saved, therefore you're elect.

 

Your answer is in the book of 1 John. Start as chapter 5:13 and then go back and read 2:4-11 and 3:9 then you will know.

 

At my old church the pastor was a Calvinist and he stated that the Puritans believed that no one could know who the elect were, only God knew that. He went on to say that the Puritans believed that they themselves would not know until they died. So I just wanted to have you clarify your position.

And yes, sometimes you really have to elaborate on your positions in this forum!

 

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That has to do with the quality of it- not the availability of it.

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So long as you don't have Christ dying for people who will never be saved; so long as he is not suffering for sins that will still be punished- I do not care. But the impression you give here is that Christ died for every single sin of every single person.

This has Christ destroying sins that he will still punish people for. Of course that is madness.

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Yes, but it undermines the principle of it.

 

No harm done. Thanks for your gracious response.

 

I think the phrase "free offer of the Gospel" has not been properly explained. By "free" I mean that there is no condition placed on the Gospel itself. The Gospel is freely offered. Now, can every person freely receive it? If a Calvinist is truthful the answer will be "no." What should not be confused is the difference between ability and expectation. I know that not everyone will/can respond positively to the freely proclaimed Gospel. However, I have an expectant view of the efficacy of the Gospel. Since I believe the promise made to Abraham, that his descendants will be as numerous as the sand on the seashore, I expect that many will respond.

I actually don't get hung up on the election issue when preaching. I know what I believe about the doctrine. I'm totally convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt about the DoG. But when I preach I call on everyone who hears to repent and believe. I expect God to call His sheep into His flock. Where the Gospel is heard the sheep will be. When the shepherd calls the sheep responds.

 

Let me correct this understanding. Calvinists would say something like, "they can't receive it because they are unable to." True, they don't want to, but their lack of desire is rooted in their inability according to how Calvinists view Scripture. Here is a verse that sheds light on this view:

1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

 

isn't this just the doctrine that some of us in Cal circles hold to that Jesus death was sufficient to pay for the Sins of ALL, but that ONLY thom whom God effectual applies thatGrace towards will gets its benefit!

 

This statement still does not have want you want in it. It still does not have Christ paying the penalty for sins which will be punished again in hell.

And the "available" of your quotes is no problem for most of us Calvinists, if you understand what is meant by it.

Salvation is available for all (as in every single person) in the sense of the Gospel call is extended to all, Christ is able to save all, there is no one who comes to him in repentance calling on him as Lord who he will not or does not save, there is no deficiency in the power of the blood to save any single person on earth, etc...

But in the technical sense NNE should believe that Christ paid for sin and then God expects that same sin to be paid for again in hell.

Calvinists are consistent here. They preach that WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. But only those who DO have had their sins atoned for on the cross.

What Arminians need to be true cannot be true. Christ cannot be a substitute and pay in full for the sins of a man and then that man STILL BE EXPECTED to pay for his own sins as if Christ's substitutionary atonement is not sufficient.

Christ atoned for the sins of those who would call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Those people alone make up God's elect.

 

The legal satisfaction is only available for those who are found to be in Christ
to be outside of Christ is to be under the full wrath of God.
The atonement was a covenant death and an ACTUAL, vicarious satisfaction....it was not at all potential....but actual , and particular.
Everyone limits the atonement,unless they are a heretical universalist.
Some of us like to follow the scriptures that actual speak about the scope of the cross work .

 

That's EXACTLY what he does.

It is almost ALL he does in debate. Misrepresent some classic Calvinist.

It is almost his ONLY strategy.

You are very astute to notice this.

 

Then here come the two crowds:

1) The cheerleaders who come in all excited and all :thumbsup: having been hoodwinked into believing what he says, having never looked into it nor having studied what he says. Scriptures say this is not the practice of the wise. The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. Proverbs 14:15

2) Others, having studied, typically immediately see how skan has taken these theologians out of context in order to attempt to prove his point. It is then readily shot down with facts and context.

It is obvious skan is on an objective against calvinists. That would include luke2427, icon, EWF, glfrederick, myself, many others here that this would include in this said objective since we are labeled thus.

I find it interesting that ever since I disproved some rather trivial thing he said in a post (which he denied saying, but in fact did) now I get the "I won't respond to you anymore p4t!!!!" Please. That's called holding a grudge and is unforgiveness in 4WD. It's not exactly what I would expect from another Christian man.

If you can't handle being incorrect, or having to eat humble pie, don't post.

- Peace