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Featured Justification by Faith

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 16, 2023.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You know, your continued lying about me doesn't make you correct.
    I have answered you on a number of occasions. So, it's not the Bible that I distrust, it's your theology that I reject.

    Why, Sliverhair, do you feel the need to place yourself as the ruler of your life? Let's discuss this obvious demand you make on God whereby you tell God that any salvation, outside of your approval, makes God a tyrant. Tell us why you hold that opinion.
     
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Still with the personal attacks and refusal to deal with the scripture that I posted. What lie am I saying about you. You do not trust scripture as you still refuse to accept what the bible clearly says. You hold to your imagined text.

    Deal with the scripture that I posted. You keep saying you dealt with it so you should have no problem dealing with it now.

    Try dealing with these verses without the hyperbole and misdirection of your usual comments. If you are so inclined you can read them in context but that will not change what these verses show. Remember Austin it is about the bible not me, try to stay on topic.

    Gal_3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    Eph_3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

    Eph_3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
     
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Already addressed God's holy word.

    Now, please address why God must be subject under your own will.
     
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You continue to run away from the question don't you. This just shows that your view is vapid. You are just so much hot air.
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I have never ever said that people are saved before they believe. You will not find any post by me where I claim this.
    What I have said is that sinners, lost and dead in trespasses and sins cannot trust in Christ for salvation. Why not? Well, it has to do with them being dead and all. It is God the Holy Spirit who must open the heart to respond to the Gospel in faith and repentance. Then, having believed by grace, they were justified by faith and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13).

    Now may I refer you to Acts of the Apostles 18:27? 'And when [Apollos] arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace.' This is entirely consistent with Ephesians 2:8 and Titus 3:5.
     
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  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Here's the question:

    Who caused us to be saved?

    Here's the answer:

    *Ephesians 2:4-5*
    But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

    Who justified us?

    Answer:

    *Romans 3:21-26*
    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Sliverhair, the Bible is very clear that our faith happens only because God gives it to us as a gift, after God has chosen to make us alive with Christ.

    Now, where is your own bragging in those verses?
     
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  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You may think it is consistent but it is only so when read through your Calvinist glasses. You have made the assumption that dead in sins means inability to trust in Christ Jesus. The bible does not say that and actually says the opposite

    Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;

    Look at your own words Martin; "having believed by grace, they were justified by faith" that is not what the bible says and you even referenced the verse. And what does Ephesians 1:13 say
    Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Martin you are twisting the text of the bible trying to make it fit your theology.
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Dead means dead. Dead people do not respond to anything. If Paul had wanted to give the impression that 'dead in sins' meant te opposite of what it obviously does mean, he could have used a different phrase; 'a bit poorly in sins,' 'unwell in sins,' or even 'jolly ill in sins;' but he doesn't. He says 'dead,' which means....... well, dead.
    Silverhair, you continually trot out these Scriptures as if you suppose that Calvinists have some problem with them. Others must speak for themselves, but I believe absolutely in all of them. Why would you suppose that I have any problem with them?
    It is you who is twisting the text of Scripture in the most blatant and obvious way, making out that 'dead' really means 'alive but not very well.'
     
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  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I see that I neglected to answer this part of your post.
    Ephesians 1:13. 'In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom, also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.' (NKJV).
    So you believe that grace doesn't come into salvation? It is up to each sinner, dead as he is in trespasses and sins, to trust in Christ in his own strength? If that is what you believe, I have to tell you that it is the purest Pelagianism. But let that pass. Let's look at some of the surrounding verses. I leave out all the obvious ones about predestination. '..... To the praise and glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved [Son]' (Ephesians 1:6). '....having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself' (v.9). God makes known to us the mystery of His will - we don't solve the mystery ourselves. Our salvation is according to His good pleasure, not ours. 'But God ..... made us alive together with Christ.....' (2:4-5). It is God who makes us alive, not ourselves so that we can believe.
    'For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast' (vs. 8-9). We cannot save ourselves, and the Scriptures never suggest that we do. It is by grace that we are saved, though faith, and that not of ourselves. Now I'm aware that some commentators try to suggest that 'not of yourselves' refers, not to faith, but to the whole of our salvation. I disagree, and can show good reason why it does refer to faith, but if the whole of our salvation is not of ourselves, then faith must be included in that.

    I repeat, it is the grace of God that must open the heart of the sinner before he can believe (1 Corinthians 2:14). Then he believes unto salvation and is sealed for the day of salvation. How simple! How satisfactory!

    BTW, you never commented on Acts of the Apostles 18:27.
     
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Your right if Paul had meant dead =dead he would have said that but what did he say
    Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

    Those were some lively dead people. You are confusing dead physical and dead spiritual as in separated from God. One can not do anything and the other can. I will leave it to you to figure that out.

    You say I trot out the same scriptures, well did it ever occur to you that I do that in the hope that you will finally understand what they mean. It is quite obvious to all on here that the meaning has gone right over your head. When you deny what the scriptures say how can you then say that you "believe absolutely in all of them"? Is this the same as the Calvinist world actually means "elect" so your believe actually means "do not believe"?
     
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  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    LOL, you're so desperate to take away God's glory and place it on yourself that you will attempt horrible mistreatment of God's word in order to claim yourself as the one to be praised.
    You have lost all credibility.
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Nice to see that you open your comment with the poison well approach by labeling as a Pelagian those that by their God given free will trust in Christ Jesus. So this taints your whole comment and throws into question the reliability of your comments.

    You have looked at these verses through your Calvinist philosophy and thus misread them as supporting your view. You quote Ephesians 1:13. 'In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom, also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.' (NKJV). And then disagree with what it says, you are a very strange duck Martin. What does this verse tell us:

    They trusted in Christ Jesus after they heard the gospel message and believed it and because they believed in Him they were saved.

    Now according to Calvinism that’s wrong. They say you have to be saved before you can believe so according to them the Holy Spirit got it wrong. The Holy Spirit is just not a good Calvinist.

    But lets look at predestination. The phrase “in Christ” indicates union with Christ, a state entered into by faith, union with Christ is given as the condition for God’s blessing of the Church. We see this in Eph_1:1 as Paul is addressing "the saints & faithful in Christ Jesus", this letter is sent to those that have trusted in Christ Jesus through Paul’s teaching. One of the spiritual blessings specified as among every spiritual blessing Eph_1:3 with which the Church has been blessed is being chosen in Him Eph_1:4. Now if God has blessed the Church with every spiritual blessing as a consequence of its being united to Christ, and election is one of those blessings, then that means that election is conditional on union with Christ and the faith by which that union is established. Ephesians 1:13

    Now you jumped to Eph 2:4-5 and concluded that those ones that were dead in their sins were, as you said before, dead. They could do nothing but like I had pointed out to you then spiritual dead/separation is not the same as dead like you would like us to think. Ephesians 2:1-3

    Where do Calvinists get this idea that man can save himself? It has to be something they conjure up in their imagination to fight the boggy man of their own making. You made a statement that I fully agree with “We cannot save ourselves, and the Scriptures never suggest that we do. It is by grace that we are saved, though faith, and that not of ourselves.”

    Actually “not of yourselves” refers to salvation. We see in John 4:10 that Christ refers to living water/salvation. Again in Romans 6:23 “...we see that the gift of God is eternal life in Christ...”. So we can see that the “gift of God” referred to in Ephesians 2: is salvation which is gained through faith in Christ Jesus.

    I have posted this before but you seem to have missed it so I will post it again for you.

    God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion.

    God opens a sinners heart so He can believe and that is one of the works of the Holy Spirit John 16:8-9.
    To say that the sinner does not naturally receive the things of the Spirit of God is not to say that he cannot. Apart from divine enlightenment John 1:9, conviction John 16:8, and drawing John 12:32, no sinner would respond to the Gospel, but this enlightenment, conviction, and drawing is extended to every sinner Mark 16:15, 1Timothy 2:3-4.

    As for Acts of the Apostles 18:27. I am curious as to what you think this proves for you? This is from Thayer: Grace “the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues”

    That is what the bile shows but notice it is “holy influence upon souls”. God does not force people to trust in His son as Calvinists seem to think. As Paul said in Romans 1:16 “...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,...”
     
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    So you do not even believe scripture. That is really sad for someone that claims to be a Christian.
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You mean this scripture?
    *Ephesians 2:1-10*
    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
    Or this scripture?
    *Romans 3:9-31*
    What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

    Sliverhair, you seem to have become delusional in your posting.
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Austin your refusal to even acknowledge the truth of scripture is shocking.
    *Ephesians 2:1-10*

    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    In your zeal to uphold your philosophical position you read past the text as it is and read into it what you want to find. The man who is “dead in trespasses and in sins” is nevertheless a rational spiritual being who is personally accountable for his life and his sins and who, except he repent, must answer before God in solemn judgment.
    Some people reference Ephesians 2:1 of us being dead G3498 in our sin but if you look at 1 Corinthians 1:21 you see that God has a solution. "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save G4982 those who believe." G4100

    *Romans 3:9-31*

    What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

    Austin I have pointed out to you a number of times that Romans 3:10-18 is a Midrash. Paul was speaking to the Jews and telling them that even by their own history they have no standing before God except as sinners. They were no better than the gentiles that they looked down upon. The context that you have posted {vs 19-31} should prove to you that your idea that it is impossible for man to turn and trust in Christ Jesus is false.

    God in His grace will save those that trust/have faith in His son. That is not man saving himself, it is God saving those that meet the condition that He has set.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
    Acts of the Apostles 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,..."
    Romans 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

    Do you really not trust what the Holy Spirit say? Are you going to claim that the context would change the meaning of these verses? Your should be better that that Austin, be honest with yourself.
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I am honest with myself.
    Dead means dead.
    Faith not of yourself means not of yourself.
    Whoever calls will be those whom God chooses to make alive.
    This is the honest understanding of God's word.
    Your understanding is a twisted, humanism.
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Your denial of clear scripture reveals much about you. You would rather hold to the Gnostic teachings brought into the church by Augustine than what the Holy Spirit wrote. I quote you scripture and even post scripture that you had posted and you still deny it. You are as lost as a ball in tall grass. You are being willfully blind and you will be judged for that. May God have mercy on your soul.
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Take each scripture you think I deny, then exegete them to show how man is the cause of his own belief. I would love to see your interpretation of the scripture, that way we can see if it's the scripture I deny or the interpretation I disagree with.
    Take one passage, not just a sentence, then interpret that passage, showing the supporting passages to that passage which helps strengthen your opinion.
    I can then do the same with the passage, show supporting passages, and we can see why you and I disagree on interpretation.

    Until then, you simply bloviate and create strawmen in order to avoid the obvious humanism you are promoting
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    And here is your strawman Austin "man is the cause of his own belief". Why would I exegete a text to show something that I do not believe. Show me one quote where I have said man saves himself. This is the strawman comment that you have run to so often that I do not even respond to it anymore.

    I have asked you numerous times to respond to verses that I have posted and you have yet to do so. But you do deny clear scripture.

    For example we have this exchange I had with Martin:

    Martin Marprelate said:
    Dead means dead. Dead people do not respond to anything. If Paul had wanted to give the impression that 'dead in sins' meant te opposite of what it obviously does mean, he could have used a different phrase; 'a bit poorly in sins,' 'unwell in sins,' or even 'jolly ill in sins;' but he doesn't. He says 'dead,' which means....... well, dead.

    Silverhair, you continually trot out these Scriptures as if you suppose that Calvinists have some problem with them. Others must speak for themselves, but I believe absolutely in all of them. Why would you suppose that I have any problem with them?
    It is you who is twisting the text of Scripture in the most blatant and obvious way, making out that 'dead' really means 'alive but not very well.'

    My response to Martin
    Your right if Paul had meant dead =dead he would have said that but what did he say
    Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

    Those were some lively dead people. You are confusing dead physical and dead spiritual as in separated from God. One can not do anything and the other can. I will leave it to you to figure that out.
    XXX

    Austin this was your comment on what I had posted to Martin
    LOL, you're so desperate to take away God's glory and place it on yourself that you will attempt horrible mistreatment of God's word in order to claim yourself as the one to be praised.
    You have lost all credibility.

    How do you come to that conclusion from what I had posted.
    Why do you not believe the bible. What was the horrible treatment of the text. Martin said Dead = Dead as in can do nothing and you agreed with him on that by your comment. But what does the bible show us Dead does not equal dead as in can do nothing, That is what I pointed out from scripture and you denied clear scripture. So as I have said numerous times you deny clear scripture so you can hold to your philosophy that contradicts scripture.

    It is impossible to have a logical discussion with you. None of your comments have any substance, just vitriol.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What does "dead" mean in the passage in Ephesians 2? Does it mean, like in the Princess Bride, "mostly dead?"
    Honestly, you make no logical or grammatical sense by denying that "dead" actually means "dead."

    What you have claimed is that if God were the cause of your salvation, without your approval, God would be an evil puppet master.

    You seem to have a twisted understanding of grace whereby you make a choice and that moves God to graciously save you. You cannot comprehend that such a view actually nullifies grace entirely. Moreso, you don't seem to recognize that your argument is a twist on the Roman Catholic view that you must have works plus grace to ultimately be saved.

    In any case, so far, you have promoted a particular christian humanism. Sliverhair, if you would post a former post of yours where you give all glory, power, and honor to Christ Jesus our Lord for having saved you by virtue of His will over your will, I would love to see it. I cannot recall one time where you gave God all the glory, honor, and praise for saving you.
    When you find it, please post it.
     
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