1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Justification by Faith

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 16, 2023.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,572
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Austin why do you not believe what the bible says?

    Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
    These individuals were dead in their sins. Do you agree with that?

    Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
    These same people once walked {they were alive as in living and breathing}. Do you agree with that?

    Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
    These same people also included Paul {among whom also we all once conducted ourselves} and we know that he is not dead as he wrote the letter. Do you agree with this?

    Austin you make no grammatical sense by denying that "dead" in these verses actually means spiritually dead {separated from God}, not your physically dead as you would have it.

    What I have said is that if your hold to the Calvinist view of divine determinism then God would indeed be a puppet master. So it is your theology that requires that view not mine. Try to get that straight Austin. You continue to accuse me of things I have not done or said.

    Austin are these verses to hard for you to understand:

    Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
    Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
    Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
    Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
    Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
    Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
    Act_15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

    Who has the twisted understanding of God's grace Austin? The bible say we are saved by His grace because we believe.
    Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    And where does this faith come from Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And what are they listening to Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Paul made this clear in this verse Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in His son. That is what the bible teaches us so why do you deny this?
    Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

    Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


    I must ask you Austin what works do you think I am doing so that I can be saved. Logically you can't mean faith is a work so what am I doing?
    Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
    Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,

    As is your usual style you make a lot of accusations but offer no proof and you insinuate that the bible supports your view but provide no supporting scripture. I given you lots of text to deal with in this post in response to your accusations now it is your turn to exegete these texts and show where you think I am in error.

    Like that old expression says: Austin it is time to put your money where your mouth is.
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We will go through this together.

    We were spiritually dead and enslaved to sin, which is what "dead in their sins" is referring to (See Romans and Galatians on us being slaves to Sin.)

    We, all lived in accordance to the prince of this world as we were enslaved in sin. Thus, we were spiritually dead.
    Think of a zombie if you must.


    Yes, Paul, when he was Saul, was spiritually dead. We see it in his behavior. We also see, in Acts 8 and Acts 9, how God, even while Paul was spiritually dead, made Paul alive on the road to Damascus. (Note that God didn't ask permission.)

    I have always maintained Paul is talking of spiritual death, but I also note that the physical death and resurrection of Lazarus functions as a great reminder of how God makes us spiritually alive (as Paul will show us in verses four and five.)

    I understand you have a "Calvinist" strawmen that no one else invokes. Try to get that straight, Sliverhair.
    Since you reject the idea that God determines your life, you place God below your own will.



    So far it is easy.

    Can a spiritually dead person believe?
    Certainly those made alive with Christ, as Ephesians 2:4-5 state (I noticed you stopped at verse 3 above. Why is that? Perhaps it's because you cannot abide by what Paul goes on to say.
    "But God...even while we were dead...made us alive with Christ...by grace you are saved."


    Great verse. Can a spiritually dead person believe?

    Can a spiritually dead person believe?
    Belief comes before justification. Do you see the progression here?


    I notice you completely ignore verse 4. I know why you do this. You hate that wonderful conjunction, "But God."

    ...lest anyone should boast.
    Can a spiritually dead person have faith?
    God's quickening comes first (Ephesians 2:4-5) Grace before faith. Faith is what causes you to believe.


    Yep, grace first. Quickening first. Then belief. It's right in this verse. That's what the church believed.

    You do. I just showed it to you.

    You say this
    The Bible says "But God...even when we were dead...made us alive...by grace we were saved.
    Your teaching is graceless works.


    We are justified by faith. This verse is not addressing salvation. God has already made His elect alive with Christ. (Ephesians 2:4-5)

    Can a spiritually dead person hear?
    A person whom God has made alive can certainly hear. Why don't you acknowledge this biblical truth?


    Paul was made alive on the Damascus road. The good news is that God makes you alive and gives you the faith to believe.


    We have gone over this. Ephesians 1:3-12 explains the process. Yet, even in this line verse you see that the dead in sins person had to hear. How can a spiritually dead person hear? Ephesians 2:4-5 tells you. "But God...made you alive...by grace you are saved.


    Only God can make a person alive and save by grace and He has chosen to save His elect and give them faith to believe in the atoning blood of Christ Jesus.


    You are wrong in your teaching. Notice I don't deny the Bible. I do, however, tell you directly, that you teach a means of salvation that the Bible does not teach. You have dead men believing and then God acts afterward. That is a false gospel.

     
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ... continued...
    A few things. First, you ignore the dialogue between Nicodemus and Jesus where Jesus tells him, point blank, he must be born again. Who can do that, Sliverhair? Can Nicodemus do that? No. God must do that.
    Second, Only the chosen of God looked and lived in the wilderness. Third, the gospel is saving everyone in the world whom God makes alive and causes them to be born again.
    How can a spiritually dead person believe, Sliverhair?



    You could not have saved yourself, Sliverhair. If you imagine that you believed, while you were spiritually dead, then you are horribly mistaken and you should question your standing before King Jesus.
    Faith is a gift that works, after God has graciously made you alive and enabled you to believe.


    Justification comes after being made alive and being gifted faith.

    I note another half sentence. I also note that this verse is addressing justification, which comes after salvation.


    I just addressed every verse you provided and I have shown you your error.


    I just did and I have just shown you your error.

    I just did, and I just won the lottery. Thanks for doing this, Sliverhair, so I could show everyone reading how you come to your error.
     
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,572
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well we can all see that you really do not trust scripture but read everything through your Gnostic philosophy.If your idea of winning the lottery you have a serious disconnect with reality.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,454
    Likes Received:
    201
    Faith:
    Baptist



    Faith is not the gift of God, as it pertains to salvation from the penalty of sin, which is the second death for eternity in the lake of fire, it is the command of God and the first act of obedience of the sinner.

    Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, (the gospel of God) and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    Faith is "A" gift of the Spirit in the body of Christ, but only to those to whom the Spirit gives it. It is given to saved people only We cannot really say what that gift is because it is not explained. In this context of a gift, it is a ministry enablement for the purpose of edification and function in the body. We do not choose our gifts in the body but the Spirit gives them according to his own will. Read about all the spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12.

    Another tragic error in this post is making Ephesians 2:8 a past tense reference as if God intended it to be past tense. It is present tense. It makes a difference with the theme of the epistle, which is "the mystery of Christ. Ep 3:6" This mystery is being revealed here by a special chosen apostle for the job, and within this theme. past tense does not fit. It is the theme for the age. The author is not dealing with one local church in Asia. but with gentiles, who before this age had no hope, no covenant promises of salvation, no blood sacrifice and were without Christ and God in the world. The gentiles were given a part in the blessings of the new covenant after the body had been populated with Jewish remnant believers in Christ for a few years already.

    So, in the early days of the church when the foundation was being laid in Christ and the apostles of Christ, it was promises kept to the Jews. Promise was the principle. God had promised his Spirit to his people Israel. The only promise to affect gentiles was given to Abraham, and it was the fact that gentiles would be blessed through his seed. So, two principles were involved during the apostolic age, promise for the Jews and grace for gentiles.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,228
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Luke 9:43 (NASB)
    And they were all amazed at the greatness of God.
    But while everyone was astonished at all that He was doing, He said to His disciples,

    To claim they all came seeking an earthly king is an outrageous falsehood of the highest order. When big crowds came to hear Jesus, they were seeking God. When deniers of God's word say scripture says no one ever seeks God, they may actually be so blinded by their bias they think the crowds came seeking to hear falsehoods.

    Did God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election? Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    If our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “into Christ” which saves us, because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.

    Having an unregenerate trust is Christ is not the cause of Regeneration! No one said it did. Having God credit the faith of an unregenerate as Righteous Faith results in regeneration. See Romans 4:23-25!!!![/QUOTE]
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,228
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Justification is when God reconciles a sinner's debt of stored up wrath, removing it, forgiving it, and remembering it no more forever.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,228
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Folks, see if you can find "through faith" anywhere in your bibles, such as Galatians 3:26. Ask yourselves how we become children of God through faith unless God utilizes our faith in choosing to make us children of God.

    Ask yourselves the same question for Ephesians 2:8.or for the other places, at least 5, where God saves us and bestows the blessings of salvation upon us THROUGH FAITH.

     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,228
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When big crowds came to hear Jesus, they were seeking God. When deniers of God's word say scripture says no one ever seeks God, they may actually be so blinded by their bias they think the crowds came seeking to hear falsehoods.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,228
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Almost all Christians would claim to believe we were justified by faith, and perhaps quote Romans 3:28, which says we are justified by faith and not by the works of the Law. If pressed, many Christians would define “works of the law” as the actions we take to conform to the requirements of the Law, rather than what the “law” actually accomplishes, which is to make us aware of our sin and lead us to Christ.

    So lets back up and ask the question, justified by whose faith? Does our faith justify us? If we took a poll, would not a large group, perhaps even a majority, say our faith justifies us? But that would be a works based salvation would it not. Ah but you say faith is not a work.

    Maybe we should back up again and consider “justified by whom?” Were we justified by what we did or by what Christ did on the cross? The free gift of justification to life was provided by Christ on the cross, Romans 5:18. So it was Christ’s faithfulness, even unto death on the cross, which provided the propitiation for the whole world. So then the question becomes, how did we “receive” that gift or have that gift applied to us individually?

    So it would seem, then that our faith in Christ provides access to Christ’s free gift of justification by the grace of God. But does that too miss the mark? I think so. Would not our faith in effect “save us” then and make us the actual architect of our salvation?

    So if our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “in Christ” which saves us because we are transferred within Christ spiritually, we receive the justification to life provided by Christ.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,228
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 3:25
    God publicly displayed him at his death as the means of reconciliation accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

    Galatians 3:26
    For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

    2 Timothy 3:15
    and how from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation
    through faith in Christ Jesus.

    The question we should ask is does God utilize faith which He does not credit as righteousness or faith that He did credit as righteousness? See Romans 4:23-25

    Romans 4:23-25 teaches God will credit the faith of those who believe - God raised Jesus from the dead - for the believer's benefit. Some deny that benefit is salvation, but it would be absurd to say God saves those whose faith He does not credit as righteousness.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,228
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Can God choose someone through faith if the person has no faith to be used? Nope - but such is the claim of Reformed Theology.

    Even Dr. Dan Wallace declares that the pronoun "that" in Ephesians 2:8-9 does not refer to "faith" but to the concept of "salvation."

    Justification by Faith is the topic and here is the bottom line:
    If our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “in Christ” which saves us because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,818
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am very short of time and therefore can only reply to a couple of matters.
    1 Corinthians 12:3. '.....No one can say, that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.' To say that Jesus is Lord is an act of faith; therefore faith is a gift of God.
    It would be a tragic error not to place Ephesians 2:8 in the past because 'You have been saved by grace through faith' is in the Perfect Tense, which means that it is a once-for-all action in the past with relevance to the present. The fact that the KJV says 'Ye are saved' does not affect that fact; it's just an archaic way of writing the Perfect Tense. The KJV does it all the time. Paul is writing 'To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.' Therefore they have been saved by grace through faith. otherwise they wouldn't be saints..

    If I can help you with anything else, let me know and I will reply as I have time.
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Folks, notice the lack of salvation by grace.
    Ask yourself how a spiritually dead person can exert faith, let alone a faith that God utilizes to save that person and then declare that faith righteous.

    Faith can only come, after God has graciously chosen to make a person alive and save them. Then, and only then, can one believe, through faith, that they have been saved.
    Through faith, then, is the means by which a person believes and is justified.

    "But God...even when we were dead...made us alive...by grace you are saved."
    Ephesians 2:4-5
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,572
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
    1Co 12:2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
    1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
    1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
    1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
    1Co 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
    1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
    1Co 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
    1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

    By the logic you have expressed in your post only some can say Jesus is Lord as only they are given the "gift" of faith.

    The context shows your misunderstanding and use of this text. I really did expect better understanding of the text of the bible from you Martin.
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    *Hebrews 12:2*
    Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Notice what is said:
    Jesus is the author and finisher of "our" faith.
    The speaker doesn't say "of all humankind's faith."
    Here we see that Jesus authored our faith. At what time did Jesus author our faith?
    Answer: When God chose to make us alive with Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-5)
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,228
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Faith:
    Baptist
    For the umpteenth time, the Reformed Theology advocate claims to be "dead" in sins means "unable to seek God or trust in Christ." And this is obviously false doctrine as people are chosen through faith in the truth for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    143
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

    If God’s Word is not preached, taught, or you don’t find it in a book, video, internet or some way, you cannot know God’s revelation and God’s Word not being there for you, there is nothing to produce faith in you.

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14 ¶ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Great verses. How do the following verses inform us regarding how people hear?
    *Ephesians 2:1-5*
    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

    *John 10:25-29*
    Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

    May God's word inform our understanding.
     
  20. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    143
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That’s what we were, before the new birth, received by grace, through faith.

    Dead is “separated”, not “insensate”. If we have “an ear to hear”, then we will hear.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...