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Featured Justification versus Eternal Redemption

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Darrell C, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    For 500 years we have seen Catholics and Protestants dispute how one is justified. By faith alone as Paul teaches, or, as James teaches, by faith and works.

    There is a simple solution: both are, in the critical passages, speaking about justification...not Eternal Redemption. Abraham was justified by faith alone, but, he was also justified by faith and works. And as long as you do not impose an eternal aspect to that justification you will have no problem maintaining the proper distinction between passages dealing with Old Testament Saints being justified in a temporal context and men being eternally redeemed through the shed blood of Christ.

    When Salvation is in view, we are told how that is accomplished:


    Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    There is no contradiction to be found in James' statement, because he isn't stating how Abraham was eternally redeemed, but, how he was justified. That there is a Temporal Justification in Scripture and that this is the issue discussed by both James and Paul is something we must take into consideration. Let's take a look at a few passages dealing with justification that clearly speak of Temporal Justification:


    Luke 18:11-14 King James Version (KJV)

    11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


    Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


    James 2:24-25 King James Version (KJV)

    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


    Most would acknowledge that James is teaching from a temporal perspective, rather than an eternal. If he were not...would we not have to conclude that one could be saved/eternally redeemed by giving food to the hungry and clothing to those who are cold? We would. So the suggestion I make for those who have struggled with the seemingly contradictory statements between James and Paul is to simply maintain these passages in their proper context and there is no problem. The problem arises when, as many do, there is an equation between the justification of men in a temporal context and Eternal Redemption which can only be accomplished through the death of Christ in the stead of the sinner. Men can be justified by faith only, as well as by faith and works, but, men can only be eternally redeemed by grace through specific faith in Jesus Christ and His death in our stead.

    Paul makes a distinction between Jew and Gentile in Romans 2-3, but brings both under condemnation despite justificationby obedience to the revealed will of God:


    Romans 3:9-12 King James Version (KJV)

    9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


    Unless we maintain a proper context between the eternal and the temporal, one might find a contradiction between the righteousness mentioned here (which no man has) and the righteousness imputed to people like Abraham, Rahab, and the Publican sinner. It's a fact: Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (concerning God's promises, in particular that his wife-beyond the age of bearing children-would produce him a son). So does v. 10 contradict that declaration of righteousness? Not at all, because Abraham was Justified according to his temporal existence...not on an eternal basis. Paul will go on, again, to make a distinction between the previous economies and the one in which he writes:


    Romans 3:21-26 King James Version (KJV)

    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


    How many people placed faith in Jesus Christ prior to the Cross? Not one.

    Abraham was justified by belief, faith, and works, so including him, Rahab, the Publican sinner, and anyone else you would like to include, how many were righteous?

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


    So again, I suggest this to those who, as I said, have struggled with what is argued as contradictory between Catholics and Protestants. Hopefully the simple truth of the distinction we must make between the justification of the Old Testament Saint and Eternal Redemption through Christ our Lord will be just that...simple to understand.

    I will leave you with another statement that has an eternal context and points out, as does Romans 3:25, that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were never forgiven on an eternal basis during their lifetimes:


    Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


    God bless

     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Abraham was justified by faith alone (Genesis 15:6) some 50 years before he was also justified by his work (Genesis 22:12) before God, which James refers to.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Good works have nothing to do with our Justification, but do count towards us maturing in Christ!
     
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Active Member

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    The Justification mentioned regarding Abraham was "before God".

    The Justification mentioned by James was "before men".

    Abraham and James were Given Faith, Saved, and Justified Through The Blood of Jesus, for Salvation.

    Jesus Paid for them with His Blood.

    ...

    Abraham and James were both 'Justified' in front of other people, by the life they lived, which reflected Christ in them, the Hope of Glory.

    ...

    One instance is speaking of "Justification", with God, while the other Passage is speaking of "Justification", with men", as far as they could or couldn't see their walk for The Lord, depending on if they were Saved. But, even the lost should sometimes find some difference and "Justification" in the behavior, of their Claim to Know God, Through The Blood of His Son.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the reply, Alan.

    This is correct, yet it would not be unbtilChrist died on the Cross and made atonement for Abraham's sin that Abraham would be, on an eternal basis...eternally redeedmed. He was not yet reconciled to God, that began when the Son was sent:


    2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


    As the previously posted Scripture states...

    ...Eternal Redemption was obtained thgrough His death and at the time of His death, not before. It was at that time that Abraham was imputed the righteousness of Christ, which is based on what Christ did, not what Abraham did (believed, had faith, performed works).


    Agreed, as noted in the OP:


    But again, while Abraham certainly was justified, as the Publican sinner was, it would not be until Christ died in his stead that he would be redeemed on an eternal basis and reconclied to God.


    Faith is the result of the intervention of God, which is why it is important to remember that we are saved by grace through faith, not saved by faith through grace. Apart from God's intervention there will never be the resulting faith. Again, in view in the Old Testament is Temporal Justification, rather than Eternal. I keep going back to the Publican sinner because he also was justified before God yet no-one would assume that he was eternally redeemed by his repentance (which would also be salvation by the efforts of a man). This instance takes place prior to the Cross of Christ and falls within an Old Testament economy (under Law). When men are justified by Christ based on His righteousness they do not do...anything. All that takes place is a result of the intervening grace of God.


    Again, agreed, however...there is no Biblcal basis for imposing the Atonement into Old Testament economies (as many do).

    Even the popular belief (particularly among the Reformed) that men have always been born again throughout the Ages needs to be understood as something that was accomplished...by the Cross of Christ:


    John 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    John 3:9-16 King James Version (KJV)

    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    Christ's answer as to how a man can be born again is...He must be lifted up (v.14). And the result was that men might have everlasting life. The impliction being men had not yet received eternal life yet, and that is pretty obvious when we consider that it is not until after Pentecost that men are Baptized with the Spirit, or in other words...immersed into Christ. Christ also taught that as well, making the distinction between the Eternal Indwelling of GOd and the filling that took place in Old Testament exonomies:


    John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


    This correlates to Christ's teaching of the necessity that He must return to Heaven (John 14:1-3):


    John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


    Continued...
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, but Christ wasn't in anyone prior to Pentecost. That is made obvious by Christ's teaching here:


    John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)

    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


    Think about this: were Jews in Christ prior to Pentecost? Gentiles?


    Ephesians 2:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


    Twice in 3 verses Paul makes the statement that Reconcviliation was accomplished by the Cross of Christ. It was His death that "slew the enmity."


    That doesn't change the fact that it is speaking of...Justification.

    Not Eternal Redemption, which can only be attributed to the Cross of Christ.


    Abraham was "saved" from an eternal perspective, but died awaiting Eternal Salvation through the Cross of Christ. There are only two means by which one could argue that Abraham's sins were atoned for on an eternal basis, and that would be (1) that The Atonement was imputed before it took place (which is error based on Scripture that makes it clear it was not) or (2) that the animal sacrifices offered up accomplished it, which is also error based on numerous passages, primarily those found in Hebrews. For example:


    Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    THe COvenant of Law is in view but the same principle applies throughout all Ages prior to this one, animal sacrifice could not take away sin on an eternal basis, only in a temporal context. That is why they had to continually be offered up over and over again.

    The same is true concerning Justification, a man can be justified temporally based on his response to God's revealed will (belief, faith, works), but, one cannot be Eternally Justified apart from the Blood and Righteousness of Christ imputed to his behalf by grace.

    That is how we are "saved."


    Not entirely sure what you mean by this, perhaps you could expand on the statement.

    Again, thanks for the response.


    God bless.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, for the response, 3.

    I would argue that the idea that he was justified by faith alone has the problem that faith relies on, first...the grace of God. He was "saved" (from an eternal perspective) by grace through faith...not by faith alone. Secondly, an inspired writer of Scripture, James, states clearly that "...we see that Abraham was not justified by faith only, but by works also." And we could add to that statement true faith is never alone, but works will be evident.

    However, the OP is not dealing with the fact that Abraham was justified by belief and faith apart from works, and by faith and works, but it looks at the distinction between Temporal Justification (found in both Romans 4 and James 2) and Eternal Redemption.

    Most equate the two so that when they say "Abraham was justified by faith alone" what they mean is "Abraham was saved by faith alone," and that is incorrect. He was justified during his lifetime but died awaiting Eternal Redemption. He died still in debt to his sin, and it would not be until Christ died in his stead that he would be reconciled to God, forgiven his sin on an eternal basis, and granted eternal life through Eternal Union with God through Christ:



    Again, thanks for the reply.


    God bless.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Active Member

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    Revelation 13:8 "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (NIV)

    "Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who died for the sins of the world (John 1:29). Jesus mission became clear to mankind only after He had been crucified on the cross.

    "Yet the scriptures reveals in Revelations 13:8 that "the Lamb was slain from the creation of the world"

    "Peter repeats this truth in even more detail when he wrote about the precious blood of Christ.

    1 Peter 1:18-20 "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,

    19 "but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. (NIV)


    "The reality is this. The blood of Jesus was shed for us before the creation of the world, but was only revealed to us when Jesus was crucified on the cross, died and rose again.

    "Not even satan knew about the shed blood until then. This truth, once understood, should have great implications for our faith and victorious living over satan, sin and sickness.

    "Firstly Peter makes it clear (in verses 18 and 19 above) that we are "redeemed from the empty way of life by the blood of Christ" and that this was accomplished "before the creation of the world".

    "In other words, the fall of mankind did not destroy God's purpose in creating mankind. God is omniscient (all knowing) and nothing takes Him unaware nor is He unprepared for any event.

    God does not go running after Satan trying to sort out the mess he (satan) creates. Rather, the blood of Jesus has already taken care of it."*

    *these folks did OK on these thoughts: The Lamb Slain from the foundation of the World | The Living Word Library

    Revelation 13:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Old Testament saints were Saved and Filled with The Holy Ghost, just as New Testament saints.

    Old Testaments saints received all of the Blessings of Salvation.

    ...

    The Holy Spirit in John 7:39 is referring to The Public Inuguralization of the Lord's Churches being Annointed by Jesus baptizing her in The Shakina Glory of God on The Day of Pentecost.

    Jesus was Speaking to His Organized church assembly as a Corporate Institution He Founded and Saying He would Send them Another Comforter.

    That was The Indwelling Annointing of The Most Holy, from Daniel 9.

    Those men, who were the building material with which Jesus Built His Kind of church assembly, were all already were Saved and Full of The Holy Spirit.

    Apparently, people who are aware of what a church is, by Bible definition, are very, very, very rare.
     
  9. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
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    I am unaware of the eternal redemption phrase being used in scripture. Redemption has to do w the purchasing of a slave to set him free.

    Justification is the pronouncement of God that the sinner has been made right w God. Imputed Righteousness is in order in that our sin is exchanged for Christ’s righteousness
     
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Active Member

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    I don't know what we are saying is 'Eternal Redemption'.

    No.

    Redemption and the other things are exactly what you say they are.

    Salvation takes place in Time.

    Was The Saving Efficacy of Jesus' Future Work in Obtaining Redemption, on The Cross and Through His Resurrection, Applicable, by God, to the Old Testimeny saints?

    Yes.

    There is One Way of Salvation.

    Jesus is The Savior.

    Adam and Eve Trusted the Blood that would be Shed, pictured to them, by the sacrifice of an animal to 'make them a covering'.

    The Presence and Knowledge of The Holy Spirit is more prominently understood, by the Writings in The New Testament, but everything in The Old Testament, with regard to saints, involves Spirit Filled believers.

    I have posted those various attributes that can be shown exhibited in Old Testaments saints, such as Redemption, Justification, and Imputed Righteousness.

    I'll try to find them.

    GOD BLESS YOU FOR GLORIFYING HIM WITH YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THESE GLORIOUS DOCTRINES!!!

    "IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS"!!??!!

    GLORIOUS!

    PRAISE JESUS!!
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Thanks again for the reply, Alan.

    This simply refers to God's intention and that Christ dying on the Cross was known to Him from the beginning. This would include understanding that from God's perspective those who will not be found in the Book of Life are already known, and refers to their fate already known to God from the beginning. A verse or two with this same principle would be...

    Matthew 25:34
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Luke 11:50

    That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

    Ephesians 1:4
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Hebrews 4:3
    For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    Imposing a quality that these were accomplished is understandable...until you look at passages that make it clear that there is a specific time when these things took place. For example, that believers would inherit the Kingdom prepared by God was, from an eternal perspective (God's), already accomplished. That did not negate that the world was created at a certain time, the Fall took place at a certain time, and that Christ died, not from the foundation of the world...


    Hebrews 9:24-28 King James Version (KJV)

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


    Here is another one:


    Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

    4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


    There is a specific point in time when the Son of God was sent (as mentioned earlier in regards to John 3) and a specific time when men were redeemed from the Law (v.5). There is, again, a specific time when the Spirit is "sent." Again, the implication being that He was not sent prior, as also mentioned in the previous post John 14:15-23; 16:7). It's not really open for debate, the Spirit was sent on the Day of Pentecost and that is when men began to believe on Jesus Christ. It might surprise you to know that paul makes it clear that faith in Christ was not found during the Age of Law:

    Galatians 3:22-28 King James Version (KJV)

    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


    A couple things to consider:

    1. Scripture had concluded all under sin. As pointed out before , there are none righteous, no...not one. Not even Abraham, when we consider the differing contexts of justification.

    2. There is a specific time at which faith in Christ came (v.23). That is clearly during the Age of Law, when the Covenant of Law was in effect.

    3. Paul speaks of Justification based on faith in Christ, which of course takes us back to the grace of God in sending the Son. That faith is a result of, first, knowledge of Christ being revealed (which it was not revealed to men in past Ages (Romans 16:25-27; Ephesians 3:3-6; Colossians 1:25-27; 1 Corinthains 1:18-2:16) to men, which occurred when the Spirit was sent.

    4. There is a specific point in time when faith had come (v.25), specifically faith in Christ vv.23 and 26).

    5. Men are made children of God through faith in Christ, the implication being that prior to faith in Christ coming there were no children of God. One could argue the use of terms indicating men and Angels were called sons of God, however, we are dealing with an eternal nature to our being adopted by God through Reconciliation, which as mentioned before began when Christ came, not before.

    6. Men were not baptized into Christ prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:4-5) which is not surprising since faith in Christ was not available under the Law. Faith in Messiah was, true, however, the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery kept secret since the world began, so it's a little difficult to have people placing faith in a risen Savior when they did not understand the Gosdpel until Pentecost, revealed by the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven (1 Peter 1:10-12).

    7. There is a specific time when there was "neinther Jew nor Greek," and it is pretty obvious in Scripture that under the Law...there was Jew and Greek (Gentile). As mentioned before, Jew and GEntile did not become one in Christ until Pentecost.

    If you would like to discuss any of these ponts in greater detail let me know. At this time, though, I would say that Revelation 13:8 does not negate the sp[ecific truths the above passages teach, that there is a specific time when the Son was sent, when He died, when men began to receive the Spirit that was not sent prior, and with that to be baptized into Christ.

    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Agreed, no man understood the Gospel prior to Pentecost, as it was a Mystery withheld from men:

    Romans 16:25-26 King James Version (KJV)

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


    Again, simply refers to God's foreknowledge, not that Christ actually died at the Creation of the World:


    Note carefully that "He...was revealed in these last times for your sake." Then consider Peter's prior statement:


    1 Peter 1:10-12 King James Version (KJV)

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


    Notice that "grace that came (to us)." That grace was not give to those who prophesied of Christ. They understood they were ministering to a future generation (V.12). Those who are preaching the GOspel do so by "...the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven," or in other words, the Comforter. That Christ was not "slain from the foundation of the world" in a context that He had already died is evident in the fact that they testified beforehand (before He died), and speak of "the glory that should follow."


    Sorry, but that is not "the reality." The reality is that there is a specific day in which the Son of God took up residence in a himan body and was born, a specific day in which He died on the Cross, and a specific day when men began to be baptized into Him.


    No-one knew, it was a Mystery. The Mystery is revealed by the Spirit that was sent:


    1 Corinthians 2:7-10 King James Version (KJV)

    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


    John 15:26
    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


    John 16:13
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


    Continued...
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    1 Peter 1:19-20 King James Version (KJV)

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


    Nothing there to negate the Scripture that points to a specific point in time when Eternal Redemption was accomplished.


    Agreed.


    No, the sins of the Old Testament Saint were redeemed when Christ died:


    Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


    Regeneration itself awaited Christ's death and ReEsurrection:


    John 3:9-15 King James Version (KJV)

    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


    1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


    John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    Men were justified in the Old Testament in a temporal context, even as those in James 2 are, however, Christ had to come, die, and rise again and return to Heaven that He might send the Spirit to indwell men in an eternal context. Men began to receive eternal life when they began to believe on Jesus Christ as risen Savior.


    Continued...
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Active Member

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    "It's not really open for debate, the Spirit was sent on the Day of Pentecost and that is when men began to believe on Jesus Christ."

    This is an enormous misconception.

    There can be no understanding of 'Church Truth', however, without first learning the Biblical usage of the word, 'church', and what it means and is, to Jesus.

    Anyway, that brings on innumerable misguided theories that are not what God would have us to understand, from His Word.

    Jesus Christ baptized His church entity, as a Corporate Institution, Divinely Originated by Him.

    That was what happened on The Day of Pentecost, in Fulfillment of Daniel 9, when Jesus was Prophecied to Annoint The Most Holy.

    Lots of individuals, by the thousands, were added to the Lord's church assembly on that day, by Salvation and Scriptural Baptism.

    In general, a bunch of people began to believe on The Lord, under the more public Preaching of The Gospel and the Public Inugralaration of the Lord's church gathering of congregated, Organized assembly, in His Name, when Jesus Baptized The Most Holy church He Built, with The End welling Shaina Glory.

    All the Saved souls from the time of Adam, were Partakers of The Divine Nature.

    Pentecost has nothing to do with The Holy Spirit being Placed in a believer, other than those normally Endwelt when they were Saved, and nothing to do with people experiencing Salvation for the first time.
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, but I spend very little time in the works of men.


    A good discussion is "When are men placed in the Book of Life?" Understanding that all men are in the Book helps us to better understand this particular statement.


    Actually they were not like New Testament Saints. They died never receiving the Spirit of God in an eternal context of Reconciliation, nor were their sins forgiven on an eternal basis. If God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and there is a specific time in which the Son is sent to redeem men...we can't impose an equality to their state and ours. It is similar to the fact that we have not yet been glorified, and will not be until the Rapture. When the Rapture occurs we will be glorified and those still on earth (who are believers) will not be. We will not be more "saved" than they, but will simply have progressed a little further than they, just as we have progressed a little further than the Old Testament Saints (while they were alive and prior to the Cross). The Old Testament Saints were "saved" by grace through faith, meaning their eternal destinies were secured while they were alive, but...

    ...they were not Eternally Redeemed.


    Sorry, no. Not even the disciples prior to Pentecosthad been born again through immersion into God, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Most view the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as an "empowerment, that is not the case. The disciples were empowered during Christ's ministry, but...they had not yet received the Spirit that would be sent. That is an important point to understand but unfortunately we would need to make that a specific topic of discussion in another thread. That the disciples were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost is seen here:


    Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


    The "Promise of the Father" that they had heard of Him is the coming Spirit. Christ defines that as receiving the Holy Ghost, not being empowered.


    No, it refers to the Spirit being sent after Christ is glorified, which ultimately refers to His return to Heaven, which is what He said He had to do in order for the Spirit to be sent. And it is at that time that the Spirit woill reveal the Mystery of the Gospel and and bring sinners to repentance:


    John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



    There was no Church until Christ began to Baptize men into HImself.


    We also see the Promise of the Father, as well as the promise of New Birth here:


    Ezekiel 36:24-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    Correct: the Church had not yet been built, and it is upon confession of Christ that it would be built:


    Matthew 16:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


    It was revealed to the disciples that Jesus was in fact the Son of GOd, the Prophesied Messiah. But when Christ begins to preach the Gospel we do not see "belief" or "Faith:"


    Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)

    20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


    Understanding tyhat the disciples did not yet believe in Christ from a Gospel perspective is important. Not only did they not believe prior to His death...they did not believe after His death:


    Mark 16:9-14 King James Version (KJV)

    9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

    10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

    11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

    12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

    13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

    14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


    No-one who refuses to believe in Christ's death and Resurrection is a member of the Church.


    This is true. Most think the Church has always been made up of believers in all Ages. Simply not the case. The Church is made up of believers who have been immersed into God in Eternal Union, having been born again by the very eternal life they receive when they are placed in Christ and He in them.

    Abraham was justified, true, but he was not a born again Christian. There simply were no Christians until Pentecost.


    God bless.
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You would have to address the Scriptures that have been presented in order to charge error.

    No man had received the Spirit until after Christ returned to Heaven. I would appreciate it if you would address a few of the points being made to support the doctrine presented. The following would be a good place to start in regards to how there can be a Church prior to faith in Christ:



     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And what we must do is distinguish between Redemption which is eternal and that which is temporal, just as we must make this distinction in regards to justification.

    In the OP I point out that the Publican sinner was "justified." Temporal or Eternal? Was Abraham justified on an eternal basis due to his works? We know he was justified, but clearly we do not equate this with Eternal Redemption through Christ. Another quiestion raised is why, if Abraham is declared righteous on an equal basis as being Justified through the Redemption which is Christ Jesus...Scripture doesn't say "...there is none righteous...except Abraham and Rahab?"

    Okay thanks to all for the replies, I am out of time but enjoying the discussion immensely.

    God bless.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is to be understood as to what faith alone means. By God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. When Abraham was later (like some 50 years later) justified by his work, the LORD God who also justfied him was none other than the preincarnate Christ (Genesis 22:12; John 1:18; John 14:6) who appeared to him.

    Isaiah the prophet wrote of it as if it were a past event, Isaiah 53:1-12. And Abraham with all the OT saints were taken to be with Christ at His ascension (Ephsians 4:8). And we all wait the full redemption at His appearing, Hebrews 9:28, Romans 8:23, 1 John 3:2.
     
    #18 37818, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Active Member

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    OH, you have, 'baptism saves someone' s soul'.

    Wow.

    No wonder you think all this confusion.

    Very odd.

    Unusual.

    I can't imagine seeing that, in my reasoning I do, even with the flesh.

    I knew The Lord many years before sitting under Teaching and it was the best.

    Salvation is easier to see by a Born Again person with The Holy Spirit Bering Witness to the Words of God, in The Bible.
     
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Active Member

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    ...

    Addressing Scriptures advanced by someone who doesn't know Jesus Saves is irrelevant.

    Galatians 4:28 "Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.

    29 "At that time, however, the son born by the flesh persecuted the son born by the Spirit. It is the same now.

    30 "But what does the Scripture say?"

    ...

    Who was, "the son born by the Spirit"?

    .
     
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