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Featured Keeping the Passover in order to be saved

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by evangelist6589, Jul 3, 2016.

  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    So we see that all Tribes can have the term Jew applied to them.

    I would not say all tribes but individuals from all tribes could be construed as a Jew in the concept of how/when God is worshiped.

    To sacrifice unto the Lord God of their fathers.

    I think Jew is a national term relative to the House of Judah of whom God gave two tribes.
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    In regards to the title of the OP, I take the simple position that Jews are nowhere told they must cast off their heritage, only the Covenant of Law is specifically specified as being abrogated.

    I view it as wrong for Jews to either to be told they cannot celebrate Passover or...that they must. I just don't see justification for that in the New Testament.

    But even more absurd is Gentiles demanding either position.

    As far as the Church of God, I think it was pointed out there are numerous organizations running under that header, so a specific statement of faith would have to be examined, as well as the individual teachings of those you ran into. As far as what you should have done was to keep preaching in your witness to them. Its not really much different when some give salvific quality to Communion, and preaching Communion and how that correlates to Passover is a great opening for addressing their legalistic approach.


    God bless.
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No, he (& SD Jr.) were practitioners of Judaism.



    No, they woulda been called practitioners of judaism.

    Actually, there's PLENTYA reason! When God caused the 10 tribes to reject the house of David & select their own king, the tribe of Benjamin remained loyal to Rehoboam as king, and the Levites soon joined them when Jeroboam booted them out as priests.

    And Romans 11:1, & Philippians 3:5 confirm Paul was a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin. Also, Romans 11 refutes the false "replacement theology" doctrine.

    No, non-Israelis who worshipped God in the same manner, under the same laws as the Israelis were practitioners of the Israeli(later Jewish) religion. They DID NOT become racial Israelis!

    And there's PLENTYA rebuttal for your false replacement theology, beginning with Romans 11, goung thru all the prophecies GOD gave about Judah and Israel.

    Your "replacement theology" garbage is phony as a Ford Corvette!
     
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    There's but one TRUE Church of God, and it's NOT Herbie Armstrong's outfit. I believe indy fundy Baptists are as true as worshippers of God can be. (but I don't believe they're the ONLY Christians.)

    And again, passover was given only to ISRAEL, as THEY were the people "passed over" & who "passed over" the Red Sea. And God said it was to be observed by the Israelis FOR EVER.

    Jesus didn't eliminate it. He added Communion (the "Lord's Supper) immediately after passover had been eaten.Communion didn't include the paschal lamb; it was only bread & drink.
     
  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I go by the Biblical term for "Jew", which is a nickname for "Judean", and includes only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. While initially, they were only the two tribes, the Levites soon joined them, as Jeroboam removed them as priests in his kingdom.

    Nowhere in Scripture do we see "a Jew of the tribe of Gad" or similar. (Anna, who lived in the temple & saw/blessed the baby Jesus, was of the tribe of Asher & was never called a "Jew" in Scripture.)
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    We are not discussing other groups so much, but Passover as it relates to Christianity. If you have a beef with these groups, that is between you and God.

    I am an independent fundamental Baptist, how then is it assumed I am a truer worshiper than other believers?


    Nor do I.


    So are you saying that Jewish Christians...must celebrate Passover?


    Have to disagree with that, lol.

    The celebration of Communion is not "added" to the celebration of the Passover.

    Communion is meant to be a remembrance of Christ's death, whereas Passover is meant as a remembrance of God forgoing judgment on those who obeyed His Word.

    One bestowed physical life, whereas One correlates to the bestowal of Eternal Life.


    Only?

    So help me out here, Robycop, so I do not assume something that isn't true in what you are saying: are you saying that Jewish Christians must celebrate Passover?

    And I will check back, have to get going.


    God bless.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Haven't had time to review the thread, but as shown in a previous post, all of the Tribes of Israel that rejected the worship of demons returned to worship, for three years anyway, of the One True God.

    The passage presented would not really imply a pilgrimage each year, but a return.


    This is an argument from silence.

    We do not see the people in Jerusalem called "The Jews and the other tribes," just...Jews.


    God bless.
     
  8. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    A Jew is a Jew is a Jew.

    Paul called himself an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin. Your sloppy quoting reflects your sloppy doctrine.

    Paul did call himself a Jew. He's the only Christian in the entire Bible referred to as a Jew. Paul continued to practice Judaism, to be a Jew to Jews. He kept the ceremonial law, continued sacrificing, took Jewish vows, etc. And, yet the only time Paul called himself a Jew is when he was pleading, to save his life, with a mob of Jews. Paul practiced Judaism to avoid giving offense to Jews. But, he was only a Jew because he practiced Judaism, not because he was of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul never presented himself as a Jew to follow Christians or to gentiles.

    You don't believe the Bible. Remember Exodus 12:48 which says a convert becomes a native (born) of Israel. "He shall be as one that is born in the land" KJV ("as" is added by the translators).

    Doesn't Romans 11 say God replaced the natural branches... I'm just teasing you, but you should be concerned about the validity of your doctrine, mine is fine.

    No such thing.
     
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Just stating the reason why I'm an indy fundy Baptist, with so many denoms out there.




    Good.




    yes, as God declared passover was to be obhserved FOR EVER, and Jesus observed it. I shoulda been a little clearer in my wording. I meant that Jesus added Communion to the rites & observances a Christian should follow. He observed passover as a Jew.




    Again, I shoulda wrrded my previous comment more clearly.

    Again, God said passover was to observed by Israel FOR EVER. Far as i'm concerned, that settles it.
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    That didn't make them Jews.




    But nowhere in Scripture are other Israelis called Jews.
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    An Israeli is an Israeli is an Israeli.



    Sloppiness is your replacement theology.

    Paul WAS a Jew, by race. Are you saying he wasn't, cuz he was of the tribe of Benny?



    What I don't believe is your silly private interp. You're now claimong you know more than a whole bus load of Scriptural translators, past and modern.



    Not as long as you believe replacement theology.



    MMRRPP! WRONG!

    There are PLENTY of them.
     
  12. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    You've achieved the debate skills of a five-year-old. I pointed out that you misquoted Paul. Let me know when you can identify actual sloppiness on my part before you accuse me of being sloppy. And, see if you can move up from lame one-liners.

    How do you know Paul wasn't a Jew because he practiced Judaism?

    I'm not offering a private interpretation.

    I said, "He shall be as one that is born in the land" KJV ("as" is added by the translators)" every Interlinear Bible on the planet will show you that "as" isn't in the Greek. I already explained to you that English translations add the word "as" because of the logical impossibility of one changing his place of birth. I only pointed out "as" was added by translators to respond your ignorant emphases of the word "as". But, the word "as" doesn't really change anything. "As a native-born Israelite" means the same as "a native born Israelite" as far as any application -- that's what the word "as" means.

    The Hebrew word translated "fore ever" also means an indefinite period of time. As long as there are Jews observing the Moasic law, Passover should be followed. But, there are no more Jews observing Mosaic law. Jesus said those who reject him do not believe Moses or the prophets. Jews haven't practiced offering a Passover lamb since the First Century. Christians observe Passover by accepting Christ as our Passover lamb.

    Scripture and reason to you is like water off a duck's back.
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    in large part I would agree, Independent Baptist fellowships can be the best fellowships, but, there can be some erroneous ones as well. We don't consider any particular group to have flawless doctrine, and the measure or manner of worship is an individual issue, not a denominational issue.


    Did the Lord also add Communion to circumcision?


    Genesis 17:9-13

    King James Version (KJV)


    9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

    10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

    11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

    12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

    13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.



    Do the offspring of Abraham need to add Communion to this everlasting Covenant?

    I think Paul settled that issue fairly well.


    And again, there is no command to Israel to shed her heritage, but...we do not confuse that with Eternal Redemption in Christ.

    There is no Jew in Christ. There is no Gentile.

    The Jew can celebrate Passover if he chooses, but, there is no impact to his salvation in Christ for either observing or not observing. That was not the case under Law...it was demanded.

    So too with Communion, there is no command to partake in specified manner, only, "As oft as ye eat or drink."


    Sure it did. "Jew" referred to the inhabitants of the land, and out of all tribes them that sought to worship God strengthened the Kingdom of Judah:


    2 Chronicles 11:16-17

    King James Version (KJV)


    16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the Lord God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the Lord God of their fathers.

    17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.



    In fact, in Christ's and the Apostles Day, they didn't even need to be living in Judah to be considered Jews:


    Acts 2:5

    King James Version (KJV)

    5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.


    6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.


    7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?


    8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?


    9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,


    10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,


    11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.





    Think about this, Robycop:


    Matthew 2:2

    King James Version (KJV)

    2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.



    Was Messiah promised to inhabitants of Judah only?

    And that's it for me in this one.


    God bless.
     
  14. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    Is Jesus your king?
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Why do you ask?


    God bless.
     
  16. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    You quoted that Jesus is king of the Jews, to show the scope of who is considered Jew. So, is Jesus your king? Yes or no. Are you a Jew.
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, no.

    We don't take the historical context of the Promise of Messiah which is specific to Jews and the quote given to you and translate that to "Well, everyone in Christ is a Jew."

    I am not a Jew, I am of the distinct people called Gentiles and separated from the Jews when the one new man is discussed.

    To answer your question, yes, Jesus Christ is my King, for He is King of Kings. But He is King of all nations in the Redemptive sense.

    I am, by Scriptural definition, A Gentile Priest in the Kingdom of Priests established by Christ.

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  18. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    It looks like you're squirming.

    Jesus is my king in every theological sense.
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus added Communion to the rites/observances Christians are to keep, same as He added the foot-washing rite. He didn't add them to any existing rites; He added them to the collection of rites.

    And no Jew today observes passover under the law as God set it forth. The observance they call Seder is somewhat different. For example, they don't eat a paschal lamb.

    And God separated the Jew from the 10 tribes after Solomon died. He hasn't yet joined them back together, but He said He would. Practicing Judaism doesn't make one a Jew, as friends & family of Sammy davis Jr. can tell you. As for what land they live in, a Jew is still a Jew. Can anyone truthfully say such people born Americal citizens such as the late baseball star Hank Greenburg or SCOTUS justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg aren't Jews? No, I'm not saying all Jews had to live in Judea to be Jews in Jesus' time, but I AM saying that all true Jews were/are of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, or Levi.

    But again, right now, the Jews are the only Israelis whose national identity is known. No one can be sure of who the peoples of the other tribes of Israel are. GOD knows, and He will reveal it in His time.

    And Jesus, as a man, was born a Jew, and was sent to the Jews first. However, we see in Scripture He saved a number of non-Jews, including a Samaritan, whom the Jews considered to be the "gentile-est" of gentiles, despised by the jews more than any other people, with the possible exception of the Amalekites.

    And while Jesus is Messiah only to the Israelis, He is Savior for all, Israeli or other. While all are eligible for salvation, Israel is God's "peculiar" people.
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Your whole line is off due to your false doctrine of "replacement theology", so I'm 'WAY aheada YOU in religious debate skill, as I go only on truth and not man's false doctrines.



    How silly! See what I mean by debate skills? You didn't read my above remarks with any comprehension. I said Paul **WAS** a Jew, of the tribe of Benjamin.. He was born a racial Jew and died a racial Jew.



    Again, you act as if you know more than all the Bible translators from Wycliffe onward. Did Sammy Davis Jr. turn white when he "converted" to Judaism? Did the Kenites who lived among the Israelis lose their heritage?

    SOME peoples, such as the Jebusites, were gradually absorbed into the Jews, as were other individual families absorbed into the other tribes. But God didn't REQUIRE the gentiles among the Israelis to observe passover. Why? Only the Israelis were "passed over".



    The Orthodox Jews today observe PART of the Mosaic law. Hor example, their observation of Seder today differs somewhat from what God set forth in Exodus. However, they fully intend to build a new temple in Jerusalem & re-institute the system of sacrifice, etc.

    But JESUS observed passover. In fact, that was one of His last acts as a man. He did NOT abolish it, nor add Comminion/foot-washing to it. passover remains a distinct observance, with its dates specified in Scripture. And again, it was given only to ISRAEL; God does NOT require anyone else to observe it. It certainly is NOT required for salvation.

    As for your silly "replacement theology", that's a subject for another thread.
     
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