Kent Hovind Blog

There is a gift tax exemption on gifts up to $11000 annually, so legally, I can give you 11000 dollars and you don't have to pay taxes on it, and I don't have to pay taxes on it.
http://www.fool.com/taxes/2002/taxes020524.htm?ref=foolwatch

It compromises it when you are called to preach something that the IRS code does not allow. That code may seem very permissive to you now, but things change.

 

I don't think the gift tax exemption applies to pastors to whom gifts are essentially remuneration for his service as a pastor. If Bill gives me $1000 as his pastor which he would not give me if I wasn't his pastor, that is still taxable because it is essentially income for doing the job as pastor.

http://www.allbusiness.com/personal-finance/individual-taxes-tax-deductions/538588-1.html

To my knowledge, I have never been called to preach something that the IRS code doesn't allow. Of course, I check my preaching by the Bible and not the IRS so this is a non-issue. When it comes to Scripture, I don't care what the IRS says. Again, I think I am repeating myself here. The fact that you may know pastors who are so weak as to run their messages by the IRS does not mean that we all are.

Our tax exempt status as a church does not affect the preaching in anyway whatsoever. If it does at your church, then you need to change churches.

Is your church tax exempt? If it is, then you are taking a benefit from the government. They can take it away from you. Chances are, your church is tax exempt.

 

A pastor in a new testament church does not receive a salary, rather his sheep honour him in the giving of tithes and freewill offerings. The offerings that the people give have already been taxed on each individual. There should be no cause to tax again just because those monies have changed hands, into a non-product creating, non-profit organization.

Being tax-exempt is NOT a government benefit. Our rights are God-given inalienable rights and come from an almighty Creator in a form of government that is supposed to serve the people not bring them into bondage. Among these rights is the ability to practice our religion free from government entanglements. The government has authority over corporations as corporations are creatures of the state and thus, they can tax them as they desire. However, the state should have no authority over Jesus Christ's Church. Forcing a pastor to be a tax-collector and forcing a church to pay taxes is an infringement upon these liberties and makes the church subservient to the government as it is the government telling them what to do with those offerings.

 

That's called a salary. The people collect money and give to the pastor in exchange for his ministerial services such as preaching. If he were not doing the work of preaching and pastoring among them, they would not be giving him the money.

That's true when you get your money from your employer. It has already been taxed. Now, under your reasoning, in your own salary (if you are not a pastor0 "There should be no cause to tax again just because those monies have changed hands, into a non-product creating, non-profit organization."

Furthermore, if your church isn't creating a product, then it isn't a NT church. The product we create is disciples.

I think you are greatly confused as to the nature of the church and the requirements or lack thereof brought by the law.

Um, yes it is.

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http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org....aspx?topic=tax_exemptions&printer-friendly=y
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Taxation has no affect on that. We can practice our religion freely and still pay taxes. Show me the Scriptural warrant for the right of tax exemption and then we can talk. Until you show me scriptural warrant, I must assume you are operating on something other than Scripture.

Taxation is not authority. Think of it this way: The state gives the church tax exemption, and then threatens to take it away if you say something they don't like. That's control. If you pay taxes, then they have no leverage over you. There is nothign to take away.

No it's not. The government doesn't tell churches what to do with their offerings. The church doesn't pay taxes. Individuals pay taxes. The church is required to withhold taxes in certain cases.

Rufus, the more you talk, the less I am convinced of your position. You have used no Scritpure. You have advocated disobedience to the law and therefore to God based on your personal opinion.

What is the ground of your knowledge in tax law with respect to clergy? Are you a pastor? Church treasurer? Tax lawyer? ACcountant? In other words, do we have any reason to believe you know what you are talking about?


Do you pay personal income tax? If not, why not? If so, does it affect your religious freedom?

 

This goes back the issue of whether pastor is a job at Church Inc. or a God-ordained office of the church of Jesus Christ. The problem is that the US government really doesn't have the authority to decide on that issue.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by tax exempt. My church is tax exempt in that it is exempted from paying taxes. All churches are, by virtue of the first amendment. It is not a privilege from the IRS, it is a guarantee by the constitution.

http://hushmoney.org/501c3-facts.htm

Churches, by going to the IRS and asking permission to be tax exempt, have effectively consented to their authority to grant or deny that status.

 

It is both. You are drawing a false dichotomy here.

That is what tax exempt mean ... you are exempt from paying taxes. In exchange for that, the IRS prohibits your from making political statements as a substantial part of your ministry. Your tax exemption is in exchange for your political silence. The IRS has pursued, and gotten, tax exemption revoked on churches or ministries who make political statements or endorsements. The law is, If you are tax exempt, you can't take political positions.

As I cited, SCOTUS has said that the first amendment does not guarantee tax exemption. They do not have to give it to churches. As you can tell by reading the first amendment, taxes are not mentioned in there.

This is the kind of statement that makes me think you are uninformed here. A church does not go and ask to be tax exempt. A church is automatically tax exempt.

What is the ground of your knowledge in tax law with respect to clergy or churches? Are you a pastor? Church treasurer? Tax lawyer? ACcountant? In other words, do we have any reason to believe you know what you are talking about?


I think you have been given some bad information. I hope it doesn't get you in a Hovind type situation, for your sake and for the sake of the gospel. I hate that the gospel of Christ it associated with people like Hovind who decide that they don't have to obey Romans 13:1-7 or 1 Peter 2:13-15. Teh gospel deserves better than that kind of representation.

You are confusing the spiritual mandate of the church with the legal status of the church in society. These are two different issues. Perhaps you are used to weak pastors and weak leaders in your churches. I can't think of any other reason why you would be scared of the IRS. If you do right, you have reason to fear.

I notice a constant lack of Scripture in arguing for your position. As such, it is hard for me to deal with. I am not really interested in trading opinions on this. I would rather discuss Scripture, but since you have not given any that I recall, I don't know what to address.

 

People are people created in the likeness and image of God, not products on a production line. You didn't create them, God did.

Um, no it isn't.

Show me scripture that says the church should be a tax-collector for Caesar.

The federal taxation system is a fraud. The wages of labourers should not be kept back by this fraud and they certainly should not be kept back by undershepherds.

"Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth." - James 5:4​

Taxation is most certainly authority. The state engages in social engineering by saying who gets taxed for what, at what levels and who gets benefits at what levels. That's fine for the state but the state is separate from the church and they state should not have authority over the church.

"The power to tax involves the power to destroy." - Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall​

If the "Church is required to withhold taxes in certain cases" then the government is telling the church what to do with the churches offerings. You again contradict yourself in the same paragraph.

No sir. I advocate strict obedience to the law. Our contention is relative to which "law" we are to adhere to.

I have no credentials that I desire to brag to you about save for being a Christian.

Yes, I do and yes it does. It puts me in bondage to the state as I pay around 49% of my labor to Federal Income Tax, State Sales tax, property tax, municipal tax, telecommunications tax, state gasoline tax, federal gasoline tax, vehicle registration, dog license, cat license, food tax, Social security tax, medicare tax, unemployment "insurance", utility taxes, workers compensation, fishing registration, hunting registration and my city has a tax for having garage sales on my property and I'm sure there's a few I'm leaving out and even after alll that I still have to pay tolls when I go into Dallas. Were it not for being in bondage to the state I would have more freedom to exercise my religion.

 

yes, but our job is building them. If we are not doing it, then we are not fulfilling teh great commission.

Yes it is. sorry.

Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's (which incidentally was a tax issue). Submit yourself to the government (Rom 13; 1 Peter 2). How many times does God have to say it?

I agree, but that's not the issue. We don't get to pick and choose these things. We are commanded to obey God by obeying government.

This is talking about individuals employers paying their employees wages. It draws from the OT command to not hold back wages even overnight (Lev 19:13). It has no reference to the discussion at hand since it does not address obeying the government by withholding tax owed.

Taxation does not bring authority any more than tax exemption does. Any demand for money, or lack of demand for money is ultimately about authority. When the government can take away tax exemption, they are exercising authority. Besides, mandates for safety codes and the like are essentially hidden taxes. When the government requires you to keep your church building to certain safety codes, they are requiring you to pay money to keep it at that code. That is position of authority.

Yes and no. Right now, the government can control speech by tax exemption. In exchange for your church's tax exemption, your church is not permitted to take political stances. If your church wants to take a political position, then they risk their task exemption.

No it's not. Think about it. The taxes withheld are withheld from someone's salary. The church's money is not their money when they pay it to someone in salary. When your name is on the check, it is your money. It is not the church's anymore.

You don't appear to since you appear to encourage violation of Rom 13 and 1 Peter 2, as well as the tax code law. So you don't appear to advocate strict obediene to anything except your own mind.

Then you will certainly understand why I reject your opinion as uninformed. Being a pastor who gets paid by the church, I have taken the time to look into this matter so that I can be obedient in it. You apparently have not.

How does any of that cause you to not have freedom to exercise your religion? What roads would you drive on to get to church were it not for those taxes? Which police officers would stop the speeders on your way to church so that you don't get hit? What stop lights and traffic control devices would enable you to get to church were it not for those taxes? What taxes will pay for the judges and the juries in court when you sue to get your religious freedom? It seems to me that your taxes actually help you practice religious freedom.

It seems to me that the Bible is pretty clear on this:

There's no doubt that government wastes a lot of money, and taxes could be lower. But that's life.


As with James, your posts have no Scripture to respond to. Being a Bible guy, I base my arguments on that. As such we don't really have much left ot talk about. You have offered no evidence of credibility. (Being a Christian doesn't qualify you to talk intelligently about tax status.) You have offered no biblical arguments in support of your position.

How would your position apply to a church say in Germany? Russia? China?

Again, I think it goes back to a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the church.

 

IANAL, nor a pastor, nor an accountant. I would sure hate to think that someone would construe my participation in this thread as tax advice.

I think the scripture we are dealing with is this one.

Mark 12:17
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marveled at him.

The question is, what is Caesar's and what is God's? If we follow the reasoning of some on this board, what is Caesar's is whatever he says is his and your in sin if you think otherwise. When Caesar comes for your children, you render them, right? No? What if the SCOTUS says that they belong to Caesar? Of course that is an extreme and I would fully expect that any reasonable Christian would understand that the government is outside of its God-given authority. Just as I understand that the government is outside of its authority when it tells a church what it can or cannot preach from the pulpit. If the IRS 'revokes' a church's tax exempt status for not towing the line, at least acknowledge it for what it is, which is persecution.

As for Hovind, I think he may have gone into this without fully counting the cost. Maybe he didn't really expect the courts to side with the IRS. I think Hovind could have done some things differently, but I don't think the outcome would have been different. But I am saddened that Hovind now has to contend not only with persecution from the state, but he is being persecuted by his own brethren. If you disagree with him on the issue, thats fine. But ascribing evil motives is beyond the authority of anyone on this board.

 

I agree.

The Bible says that parents are to bring their children up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord (Eph 6:4; Col 3:17ff). Therefore, the request of the government to "render your children" is a request that calls for disobedience to an explicit command of God. We would be justly disobedient to "obey God rather than man." Taxes however are a different matter.

I agree. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is about taxation, specificaly about withholding taxes from an employee.

I agree with that. But again, that's a different issue.

I haven't ascribed any motives to him. But I disagree that he is being persecuted.

1 Peter 2:20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

Hovind fits in the first part of the verse. He sinned, and is now "harshly treated." That's not something to rejoice in.

 

Folks are having to tap-dance pretty hard to avoid the scriptures that are quite clear on this issue.

From Matthew 17:

It seems to me that Jesus thought it best to go beyond "the call of duty." And since Jesus told the disciples to go and get the coin, then in effect he was 'collecting' taxes. When I contrast Hovind's actions with Christ's in this passage, Hovind comes up short.

 

I agree.

The Bible says that parents are to bring their children up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord (Eph 6:4; Col 3:17ff). Therefore, the request of the government to "render your children" is a request that calls for disobedience to an explicit command of God. We would be justly disobedient to "obey God rather than man." Taxes however are a different matter.

I agree. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is about taxation, specificaly about withholding taxes from an employee.

I agree with that. But again, that's a different issue.

I haven't ascribed any motives to him. But I disagree that he is being persecuted.

1 Peter 2:20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

Hovind fits in the first part of the verse. He sinned, and is now "harshly treated." That's not something to rejoice in.

 

Do you really think that people who make "poor arguments" should be booted off the BB? Wow, this is scary, good thing you don't control these decisions. BTW, would everyone here have to come up to your standards in order to remain a member?

 

Of course, Terry. I have a bridge I would like to sell you too.

The truth is that not all arguments are worthy of consideration. There are, quite simply, some dumb things that are said. That doesn't mean they should be booted off the board. I am not referring to any comments here since I don't recall many of them. I don't even recall the remark I made that comment in response to and I am too unconcerned to go back and look it up, but I was speaking in jest. Lighten up. This is a discussion board where we have a good time. Don't take yourself so seriously, and by all means, don't take me that seriously.

 

Please note that the coin came via a miracle of God out of the mouth of a fish and were not taken from a minister of God, so yes Hovind comes up short on this account.

 

He doesn't even say once, what you say He said in Romans 13:1. He does not say "submit yourself to the government".

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." - Romans 13:1​

In the United States of America, the highest of higher powers is the United States Constitution and it is that which we are subjects to.

An employer has to hold back the wages of an employee in order to give the money to a third party, it is applicable.

If a government is controlling speech as you submit than how is this representative of having freedom of speech and freedom of religion?

You're looking at the ministers of the church as being employees of a business.

Your law is the IRS tax code, mine is the Constitution.

You can reject my opinion as uninformed and I'll reject yours as being from an agent of a creature of the state.

If I am laboring only to give half of my wages to the government than I am 50% slave. Rather than giving those funds to ministries or having extra time to spare on ministries, I am laboring for someone else's benefit.

...where would the billions in aid to foreign countries come from? What would Planned Parenthood do? How would NASA build another rocket? How would state indoctrination centers survive? Where would we get the money to bomb people? What would the NAEA do? How would we keep our national debt to only $9 trillion?

Life doesn't have to be like this.

"From a Christian standpoint. Do you realize that without the income tax thousands of mothers could leave the workforce and work from home or homeschool, producing intelligent, moral children? Without the income tax do you realize how many ministries could thrive, aiding poverty, drug addiction, homelessness, teen pregnancy without government strings attached?" - Sherry Jackson, Former IRS Agent​

Not true.

I know, you'd rather listen to experts than Christians.

I would advocate for no state involvement in Jesus Christ's church for that is outside of the domain of the state. If that can not be addressed above ground than the church should go underground.

There's something we can agree on.

 

That man is an embarrassment to Christianity, he should rot in jail.

 

You need to read Rom 13 and 1 Peter 2 more closely apparently. The context is the government. The Constitution does not exist in a vacuum. It contains a mechanism for its meaning, in the legislative, executive, and judicial branches. You are none of them, and you don’t get to decide what the constitution means.

That’s clearly not what the text is talking about. This kind of application of the text embarrasses me and makes it so easy for our Christianity to be maligned.

I think freedom of speech and freedom of religion are always qualified. We don’t allow sacrificing babies to Molech in the name of freedom of religion and we don’t allow people to threaten to shoot the president. Again, freedom exists in a context.

As I said, they are employees for some purposes and self-employed for other purposes.

Mine is actually both. The IRS tax code exists under the constitution. If you think it is illegal, then challenge it in court. That is the constitutional way (that you claim you believe in) to handle disagreements.

You would be wrong. I am not an agent of the state in anyway. I am far from an agent of the state. You, however, do appear to be uninformed about tax law.

That doesn’t make your 50% slave any more than spending 25% of your income on a house makes you a slave of the house. Remember, taxes are payments for services received. It is a bad deal much of the time, but that is the way it works. In taxes, you are laboring for your own benefit, in terms of law officers, judges, infrastructure, etc.

As I say, there is much bad management in government. But that’s not the issue here.

Sure. I realize that. Do you realize without some kind of tax, you would live in fear of your home being broken into every night and no one to come to your rescue. You would have no judges to protect your rights in court. You would have no roads, etc.

The only Scripture I recall you offering was James 5:3, and you took it grossly out of context.

Depends on the topic. When it comes to legal matters, I would prefer to listen to a Christian expert. But I will settle for an expert.

What does that mean? Does the state have a right to building codes when you build a new building? I am for no state involvement in the church in matters that are outside the domain of the state. But obviously, we don’t see eye to eye on what is the domain of the state. I see Roma 13:5-7 as being pretty clear about paying taxes, since it says exactly that. You have given us no biblical text regarding the church not paying taxes, much less individuals paid by the church from not being taxed. You have this strange idea that people who get money for doing a job are not really employers.

Actually, I don’t think we agree on this at all.

 

I not only get to but it is a responsibility of all the citizenry of a government for the people by the people.

“It is not the function of our Government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the Government from falling into error.” - Robert Jackson

“The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure.”-Albert Einstein

“It's surely very good that citizens understand the Constitution and it's in some sense critical that citizens watch over Congress and the courts to make sure they're good stewards of the Constitution,” - John McGinnis

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." - 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution​

Good we can be equally embarrassed on each other's behalf.

We're not talking about sacrificing babies to Molech, for those encouragements see the Supreme Court. How far you must stretch to find justification for allowing the gov't to tell you what to say and what not to say.

Perhaps in some churches they are but they ought to be employed by Jesus Christ instead and He doesn't require a W-2.

It does and nothing in the code is unconstitutional. However, what people believe the code says is quite different from reality.

You said your church was incorporated. The definition of a corporation is a creature of the state. You are the head of this creature which makes you an agent for the state.

What if they took 100% of my income, would I still be free?

Btw. Our federal taxes do not go to services, they go to pay interest on debt and new debt is created for services.

I do not fear what man might do to me. I do not rely on the state to come to my rescue. On average it takes 7 1/2 minutes for emergency services to respond to a 9/11 call. It takes me around 1 second to release the safety.

All it need be is one verse, that you responded to, to make your statement untrue.

Right, and you will believe the antichrist "expert" before you will believe a prochrist nonexpert.

Not for a church, they don't.

That is obvious. I believe in church and state separation. Two different domains working for two different kingdoms.

It is clear. Tribute to whom tribute is due. The IRS is not due the tribute of offerings given unto God.

We agree that we each have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of church from each other's world view.

I'm going to be unplugging for awhile to direct my attentions and energies elsewhere, so the last word is yours. Grace and peace to ya.

 

You seriously misunderstand the nature of our government. It is a republic, in which we elect people to legislate for us. We do have a direct say, unless we get elected to office. Furthermore, I notice you quote a lot of people, God not being among them. Isn’t that revealing?

We’re talking about the fact that religious freedom is not absolute. There are limits on religious freedom, and everyone recognizes that. You want to avoid it because you know it shows a fatal flaw in your argument.

Actually he does, because the government he ordained does.

That’s nonsense.

Sure.

That’s non-sensical. What do you think the debt is from? Services.

Ah, but you do. You simply fail to realize it.

But the verse was not applicable to the situation. You took it out of context, and thereby used the Lord’s name in vain.

On legal matters, yes. You would be wise to do the same. Hovind learned that the hard way and now he has ten years to think about it, while disobeying God by not providing for his family.

Really??? You think the government cannot enforce building codes at a church?

This is the crux of my point. Church and state separation is why I don’t get involved in the political process from the pulpit, whether in taxes or legislation. You are involving the state in the church when you refuse to obey the law with respect to taxes. Ask Hovind. He is not serving ten years in a church jail. He is serving it in a state jail.

And they don’t receive it. The IRS doesn’t get any money. They collect it for the government. And they don’t take from the offerings of God (although that would not be unbiblical necessarily). The tax withheld and paid is employee taxes, not church taxes.

I think you are woefully deficient in your understanding of the Bible on this area, and if you lead your church this way, you are headed down the road of Hovind and Greg Dixon. Our Christ deserves better than that. The gospel should not be embarrassed by these shenanigans.