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Hos,

I found Sam Waldrons article helpful. I also have sadly mixed feelings about these men. I like alot of what they write and discuss....but they always seem to go two steps further than I would go, and they do have some clear error and wrong thinking.
So what is the result?
Most read a little bit from them ,or listen to their ideas and reject them wholesale, rather than take the time to chew the meat and spit out the bones.
As far as eschatology....I have said many times that I am in between post-mill and amill....in my understanding.{ whatever calendar on endtimes is the right one is alright with me}
The last few years ...I find that I am drawn to the postmill side, in that they constantly speak about holiness of life , and trying to bring the gospel to the unsaved, in every sphere of life.
Some of the other views I believe to be guilty of WORLD FLIGHT which as I see it is exceedingly sinful.


Another unfortunate side effect is that very view will take the time to read and sift through some of the ideas offered and offer biblical correction.
I give you credit for at least being well read in many areas of theology and life.[ case in point, the other day you referenced from ezekiel...those who have a whore's forehead and yet were not ashamed!..good verse, many do not even know the verse much less the content, or how you used it:thumbs:]

I think the church in general is not well read, and consequently falls short of raising the bar on how we in our day attempt to live the christian life.

40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

When I posted this thread it was not a trick, or to "bait"people. I think this is a crucial area of life for each of us to consider.Much of my time spent meditaing as I drive is on these issues so I was looking forward to some biblical feedback. We clash sometimes but I know you are capable of coming up with some solid ideas and posts.
When I quote a solid contemporary writer like Pastor Gentry......even if someone does not hold his view on endtimes...if the truth be known...he would slice and dice many ill equipped persons who are shallow in their outlook-[he is a gifted and graceful person, so he would not demean anyone that way, but would try and point them back to scripture.]

But what I am getting at is...if you read his writing,and the solid verses offered, you are pressed to consider what he offers, and if you do not agree, give a biblically well reasoned response.

I was originally taught the dispy premill teaching and used to offer up the classic position to try and defend what I was told was -the truth!
I have no desire to attack any who hold that view unless they do so with an ignorant ,unscriptural approach yet think they have it all.

I am not worried about confessions, and some who become hyper- confessional. That can be a danger for some. I value the word of scripture so far above the tools that we use, that it is not a danger to me.
I like all the "tools' and those who start there, because they for the most part desire to remain immersed in scripture. Sometimes I have observed that they go hyper-confessional if in the flesh they are trying to impress other men with their staunch confessional stance.Do you see what i am saying.

well again...I am looking more for how do we occupy until he comes? whatever view a person has, how does it influence them ...day by day, when they speak to others, when they work, when they meet strangers, when they fellowship?

What are your thoughts on world flight???

 

HeirofSalvation

Hos,Thanks for your response. If and when i post a link....save it to favorites or save it on flash-drive ...until you can take some time with it.
i try not to post things that would waste someones time. Sam Waldron is a really gifted teacher...you can hear him on sermonaudio...same with Pastor Gentry.
remember... i was premill for a number of years...so I would not ridicule anyone who holds that or any other endtime position, as long as they agree we win In Christ, and Jesus returns.

You will see it right away,lol...some, not all want to re-implement the OT theocratic laws....stoning people to death ,etc.

...

Let me put it this way......the issues and questions raised are vital....no matter which end time view you hold. Everyone has to answer these questions...or at least should. You would be at a dis-advantage as I was when I first looked at these other positions because what I found out was, they seemed to offer a very strong biblical case for their view.

I tell everyone.....learn each position..Accurately.....Hold what you hold to until the time comes when you are scripturally convinced.

Hos...I could go in a premill bible study and teach the position in a way that I could get amens from revmac, thomas 15, greg perrySR.:laugh:

and I have said many times if that is what the Lord had for us, I would be fine with it! I just do not think it is the most biblical now...

I can teach the amill, and postmill to some extent, but sometimes the views criss-cross and have common elements which I still at times have to unravel.lol

Some of the ideas can be extracted ...in general,however some of the main ideas of necessity...seperate because they are either .....or's

Hos...the term as I have heard it used is when christians are accused of separating...so much.. from the world, they they stop being salt and light.
They never engage the culture in a meaningful way.They cluster together in home and church, but avoid all contact with the unsaved, or government, etc......the idea, why polish the brass on a sinking ship?

Thanks. I think this is well worth the time no matter what view someone holds to. let me say again.....even if lets say postmill is not correct....
I like that they more than the others seem to give detailed reasons why we are to fully engage the culture and occupy until Jesus comes. I feel very often challenged and it exposes areas where I am sinfully negligent at times, failing to do all I can for the Kingdom. Until i read some of these guys and took time to look up the verses I tried to dismiss them.
The verses they offer are too good and more than solid...I cannot just ignore them.

here is a book in pdf format...save it and glance at it as time permits....see what he offers and why before you kind of resist, or defend against it.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1992_gentry_dominion.pdf

..

That is okay.....I am still trying to better understand these writings, I am not interested in any "gotcha" scenerioes. Most premill are taught that it and it alone is the truth...at least I was, and it took some extensive reading to be able to re-think some of these things. Many canot comment on this thread because they do not understand the other position being offered.

I am with you....but, you and I have had some run-ins before wherein I thought you were a little too "confessional" for my taste...This doesn't make either of us "wrong" or "right" (you obviously remember when I called you things like a Catholic Inquisitor and what-not right) <-----:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:
Maybe the difference is as subtle as the difference between Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton??? They can be quite subtle...


I have never heard the term "World-Flight"...I am deducing what I think you mean, by assuming that you have such a lack of appreciation for pre-millenialism that you tend to assume that every "pre-millenialist" has a sort-of:

"Screw-this place...I'm outa here...and what do I give a rat's patooty about what happens, and the worse it gets the better....and we merely await the arrival of the fifth Imam or something..."

That isn't how most of us really think...Logically, though, it wouldn't prove us wrong actually...I would like to engage this with the ability to approach it without regard to eschatological viewpoint...but, if the idea is so very interrelated (and that is ok actually.....it just means the likes of HoS aren't really invited).....than that is ok....

You have posed some wonderful ideas on your thread.....What I would actually like to see is for you to post what YOU think, a little more than quote what others think....tell us what Hebrews 2 says to YOU!!!!!:thumbs:[/QUOTE]

Hos,

I speak much faster than i type, so it is easier for me to cut and paste something then type at length. I try and post those that speak for me.

If we meet some time we can talk with open bibles and sort things out,and solve all manner of theological difficulties.

I can go on and on about hebrews 2-
2;1-4...warning...do not drift past the safe harbor of the apostolic word,

4-8, the creation mandate re affirmed.....man was to have dominion, the fall did not rescind the creation mandate, be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth......not flee from it. In Jesus the last Adam some believe we are to not fail as Ot Israel did, but we are to be used by God to turn this world around...one soul at a time.....urging them to press into the kingdom

9-17....Jesus our Great high priest dying a covenant death for the people who are given to Him by the Father..the seed of Abraham.

 

thomas15

That is good Thomas:thumbs:

I do not know why you would offer this.Scriptural truth affects how we live.
It should be very important to every christian.

Thomas....I am open to any scriptural correction so feel free to respond biblically at anytime.We should be about truth...not just an emotional reaction to what teaching is offered.

It would be better all the way around to take a portion of the article, or book....and show why you do not see it as truth,and why.

.

Let me ask you a question here.Can you honestly say that in any premill church you have been in.....what percentage of people even know there are other positions? I am not speaking about you,, but the average person who hears sermons about the approaching time of jacobs trouble, or the little horn from Daniel,or the mark of the beast?
Some perhaps have heard of these other positions, but are told very quickly that they"spiritualize" the passages away. They mostly never look at it.
My point is if you have truth it will stand up to the test.

There is a correlation...yes agreed.The question is....is it biblical?

We disagree on this very clearly.I have to believe you are playing semantics with these terms.

This is another large topic. We do not live in isolation from history. I have discussed a bit with Michael Wrenn that history is a mix of truth and error, that we have to sort out...it is not simple and there are parts of it that are not comforting.

Gary Demar is a solid brother and I think this kind of base comment should not take place. Can you show why you have such disdain for a christian teacher. I know you do not agree with his beliefs, but again can you show why??? scripturally???

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=4220684831

I am on my way to california right now...westbound in Iowa...will be in san
fransisco and oakland thurs and friday.

Do you mean the flying j at the 215 exit? on 80....or the one down at exit 10 frystown....which one is closer to you? If I can meet sometime I will depends if my return load goes back to Ny, or I have to deliver it.

 

Hos, here is some more from postmill made easy, By pastor Gentry;

 

According to the New Testament the “last days” begin in the first
century (1 Cor 10:11; Heb 9:26; 1 John 2:18; 1 Pet 1:20). In fact, the
Spirit’s outpouring at Pentecost formally initiates the “last days,” for
Peter explains: “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
‘And it shall be in the last days” (Acts 2:16–17a). Theologically-speaking,
then, history is divided between the former days (before Christ) and the
“last days” (after Christ): “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in
the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has
spoken to us in His Son” (Heb 1:1–2a). The “last days” cover the remaining
days of temporal history from the first century until the second
coming of Christ, which will be “the end” (1 Cor 15:24; cp. Matt 13:39–40,
49), when Christ resurrects and judges the dead (John 6:39, 44, 54; 11:24;

12:48). Hence, the days in which we have been living since the first
century are the last days — with none to follow (otherwise the would not
be “the last days”).
The reference to “Jerusalem” (Isa 2:3d) represents the whole people
of God, just as “Israel” and “Judah” do in Jeremiah 31:31. In Jeremiah the
“new covenant” with Israel and Judah specifically applies to the international
Church in the New Testament (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25; 2 Cor 3:6;
Heb 8:8–13). The New Testament Christians come to “Jerusalem” as they
come to Christ (Gal 4:25–26; Heb 12:22).
The references to the “mountain,” the “house of the God of Jacob,”
and “Zion” refer to the Church. Historical Jerusalem is where Christ effects
redemption (Acts 10:39; Rom 9:33; 1 Pet 2:6) and where Christianity
begins (Luke 24:47, 52; Acts 1:8; 2:1ff). The historical “city of peace”
stands as a symbol of the trans-national, supra-historical city of God from
whence the peace of God ultimately flows. According to the New Testament
the Church is the focal point (not the totality) of Christ’s kingdom
(Matt 16:18–19); she becomes the temple and house of God (1 Cor 3:16;
6:19; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19–21; 1 Pet 2:5). She is the earthly manifestation
of the city of God (Gal 4:25–26; Heb 12:22; 1 Pet 2:6; Rev 21:2) and sits
on a hill to influence the world (Matt 5:14; Heb 12:22; Rev 14:1; 21:10).
Isaiah says that Christ’s Church will be “established” (Heb., kun) in
“the top of the mountains” (Isa 2:2c), indicating she will be “permanently
fixed, rendered permanently visible.”2 After the introductory phrase “last
days,” Isaiah places the word “established” first for emphasis. In Old Testament
eschatological portrayals this house is gigantic (Eze 40:2); Jerusalem
expands her borders (Isa 54:1–5) and towers over a plain (Zech
14:10). Thus, the Church is so firmly established as to tower over the
world. She is a permanent, life-giving fixture in the earth: the “gates of
hell” cannot prevail against her (Matt 16:18), nor may she “be shaken”
(Heb 12:28). In both Isaiah 2:2 and Micah 4:1 the result “must be understood
of an enduring condition, and the same is implied in the representation
in vss. 3, 4 of Jehovah’s teaching function, of his judging between
nations and of the state of peace and security prevailing[/QUOTE]

This seems to me to be a somewhat substantial case being made scripturally.....if it is true, how does it change our worldview and how we conduct ourselves as individuals and as local churches?

 

thomas15

Good post, good thoughts.:thumbsup:

Correct and agreed:wavey:

It might come across that way,but it is not as it seems.There is an abundance of good study material in the covenant camp.Those into the teaching feed and build on it growing all the time.
There is a danger built into this that is more of a danger to the covenant theologian. The is a confidence in the finished work of Jesus that gives a confidence or boldness when offering this teaching.
That it stands against what you hold alot, makes you get keyed up and look at it as an enemy rather than a friend.
I do not think that many in an average baptist church enough study goes on anyway.....and in some reformed baptist churches also....this is a common problem
Thomas...in this thread...there are many good verses offered but you are one of the few who will read and offer comments. I think many cannot enter in because they are not sure how to go about it.

The ones I have been in are mostly fundy types,and not so knowledgeable.

Most of us have been taught premill to begin with. I do not know of anyone who went from amill or post...to premill.

I would have to look into that...it has not been what I have seen in person

Feel free to challenge Gentrys teaching with whatever source you want to use....turn it loose...[before the rapture]:laugh: If you don't I might be left behind and have to become a tribulation saint.