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KJVO

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Jordan Kurecki, Oct 13, 2018.

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  1. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I do hope this is not verbatim. Cloud's target should not be Hort, but Westcott, who was, BTW, 22 at the time. (Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott ... Vol. 1, page 81, London, 1903.) I would have a difficult time believing Hort said any such thing, given that Westcott was more prone to pietism than Hort.

    As to its importance, you can read the whole passage and remember that — Surprise! — Wescott was Anglican (but certainly not Anglo-Catholic or an apostate like Henry Newman). Later on in the passage he remarks that he found a crucifix and "I wish it had been a cross. I wish earnestly we have not suffered superstition to have brought that infamy on the emblem of our religion which persecution never could affix to it. But I am afraid the wish is in vain."

    But the real question is what does this snippet have to do with Westcott's Greek New Testament? Not a blessed thing. That Cloud would feel free to repeat (and inflate) such things damages his credibility and puts him closer to the KJVO crazies than he professes to be.
     
    #101 rsr, Oct 29, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is a generalization. As generalizations go, generalizations are usually wrong. There are a few such cases where there is little or no Greek manuscript support. In 1 John 5:7 and in Acts 9:5-6 to cite two such cases.
     
    #102 37818, Oct 29, 2018
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Some KJVO have made those 2 out to be wizards and into occult and séances, but really think for their time, both were pretty conservative Christians!
     
    #103 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2018
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The 2 biggest bugaboos for KJVO seem to be the end of Mark's gospel and 1John 5:7, as if any modern bible not dully supporting that are satanic based!
     
    #104 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2018
  5. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Most English Bible translations contain those passages. In the case of 1 Jn. 5:7,8 most versions have a full footnote referencing the disputed words.

    As far as the false ending(s) of Mark 16 goes verses 9-20 are printed, though in small print, within brackets.
     
    #105 Rippon, Oct 30, 2018
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Bottom line is "KJO-ism" depends on the heresy of double inspiration (even if it's adherents don't recognize it).
     
    #106 JonC, Oct 30, 2018
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Mark 16:9-20 are represented in 99.8% of the evidence. Only about 3 manuscripts omit the reading. One of them has a blank column where it would have fit..
     
    #107 37818, Oct 30, 2018
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    They are not the same. 1 John 5:7 has more evidence than Mark 16:9-20 has for its omission.
     
    #108 37818, Oct 31, 2018
  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Well Jon I'm not in that group and really don't care what translation another brother studies, reads and quotes from... I leave them alone and they leave me alone... Being ignorant of this on going battle as I am KJV, pray tell me what is double inspiration?... Brother Glen:)
     
    #109 tyndale1946, Oct 31, 2018
  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The term "double inspiration" is sometimes used for those who claim that the KJV is inspired or given by inspiration just as the original language Scriptures are. The claimed inspiration for the KJV would be considered the second or double inspiration.

    Those who claim that the KJV is inspired would not typically say that the pre-1611 English Bibles of which the KJV is a revision are inspired so in effect they would be suggesting a new or second inspiration for the KJV.
     
    #110 Logos1560, Oct 31, 2018
  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Thank you!... Now I understand... Brother Glen:)
     
    #111 tyndale1946, Oct 31, 2018
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That God inspired the Anglican translators (as a second and special inspiration) to produce the KJV. As such the KJV is the only transmission that is Gods word in the English language (other translations are human products lacking this special inspiration).
     
    #112 JonC, Oct 31, 2018
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think that? As good as I think the KJV is, there are no inerrant translations and this includes the KJV.
     
    #113 37818, Oct 31, 2018
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Thank you Jon I have my own thoughts on the matter and will not go into it but I will step aside and let you two brethren argue about it... Just asking... Brother Glen:)
     
    #114 tyndale1946, Oct 31, 2018
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe the KJV is the inerrant Word of God, but the translation is not alone (my NASB is also the inerrant Word of God). The reason is that we are speaking of translations.
     
    #115 JonC, Oct 31, 2018
  16. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The poster is not saying what he thinks about the KJV, but what KJV-only reasoning would suggest.

    Holders of a KJV-only view would in effect attempt to suggest, assume, or claim that the KJV is the word of God in English in some different sense than any other English translation is the word of God in English.

    While perhaps admitting the fact that the KJV is a translation, holders of a KJV-only view attempt in effect to treat the KJV as though it is in a different category than all other English translations or as though it is not a translation in the same sense (univocally) as other English Bibles.
     
    #116 Logos1560, Oct 31, 2018
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  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I don't hear people on this board arguing this way, and in fact, I've never heard anyone argue this way. What the KJVO people in Britain argue is simply that the KJV is much the best translation. I don't agree with that, but it's a viewpoint.

    Those who jump on the KJV-onlyists from such a great height seem to me to be erecting a straw man.
     
    #117 Martin Marprelate, Oct 31, 2018
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Where I live we have several IFB churches that believe the KJV is the only Bible that is God's Word in the English language. I attended one for awhile recently (and would gladly go back to visit).

    The pastor told me he didn't believe in "double inspiration" and disagreed with Peter Ruckman on that issue (I understand why you wouldn't be familiar with Ruckman, but he was popular in certain circles on this side of the pond). I believe that in practice his position affirms the doctrine he would otherwise deny.

    The strawman suggestion is out of ignorance, but I understand it is most likely due to differences in our cultures. I know many who prefer the KJV, or believe it the best translation we have available to us. But those opinions are not what I'd argue against.
     
    #118 JonC, Oct 31, 2018
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but the KJVO take big issues with that, as to them both passages would have no need to have brackets/margins/footnotes, as both were in the originals per them period!
     
    #119 Yeshua1, Nov 1, 2018
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Just as the Holy Spirit was involved in the inspiration of the originals, he was doing the same thing to make sure the 1611 team created the perfect English translation, but they neglect to accept that even the 1611 has had numerous revisions done to it over time!
     
    #120 Yeshua1, Nov 1, 2018
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