Land that Indians used to own.....

[Salty]

Somehow, on another thread - the subject of Indians came up - so as not to hijack that discussion - I have opened up this thread.


I used to work for the Oneida (Indian*) Nation. Part of our training - we were taught a little about their history. (The Oneida Nation prefers the term Indian over native American)

Back in the 60's there was a fire that engulfed at least one home on the Oneida Nation. Two people died in that fire. The big concern was that the City fire dept refused to go onto the reservation. (after some research - I found they refused because the firemen feared for their safety)
After that fire - the Tribe started bingo - and with the profits, then bought their own fire engine. Then they opened a convenience store - which now has expanded to over a dozen stores. Later they make plans for Turning Stone - though a good portion of that is for gambling - there are many other business in there as well. (Mrs Salty loves the chocolate store!) There are several restaurants, which we have eaten at. They also have a golf course and other activities.

The other thing they have done is to buy up property. Since building Turning Stone, they have opened two additional smaller casinos. In addition to the land for those casinos - they have been purchasing several other properties as well..
However, when they purchase property - it comes off the county tax rolls.

Another Tax fact - the Oneida Nations charges tax for product and s services - but the Nation keeps the tax to be used for their expenses. However, one thing have been told - but I have not yet confined is that the BUA funds the Oneida Indian Nation, NY; police force
When I looked for a source - I did see that funds were requested for the Oneida Nation Police of Wisconsin.

So, it appears that Indians have started to reclaim their land and become self sufficent.

 

[AustinC]

Let's look at history and culture.
Historically tribal groups had migratory patterns of movement based upon food sources. If food sources were plentiful, tribes and clans would live in peace. However, warriors, in accordance with culture, would need to go and prove themselves. This often resulted in springtime raids on neighboring tribal villages where women would be stolen and forced to live in that community...until or if the original tribe had warriors strike back.
When resources were thin, wars would break out for food supplies. In Wisconsin and Minnesota there were many wars over the wild rice lakes.
Add in the arrival of Europeans, with a different culture and different land claims and you get greater movement and fighting over scarce resources. As tribal groups from Europe move in and cultural norms get displaced you see governments creating reservations for various cultures to exist with designated confines. These confines are counter-cultural to traditions and cause conflicts both outside and within the tribes. Some tribal members come to saving faith in Christ due to valiant efforts by missionaries like David Brainard and Jonathan Edwards (and many others) which also causes a rift in tribes.
When the US government creates reservations it declares tribal groups to become dependent sovereign nations, meaning that the indigenous nations are under the authority of the federal government, but are otherwise autonomous nations. This means States, counties and local authorities have no legal jurisdiction and cannot dictate rules on the reservation(s).
Indigenous nations then realized that they needed legal counsel to fight back against the federal government, since physical fighting had been crushed. They began sending their best and brightest to law schools and formed legal councils to fight against injustice and government failure to fulfill treaty rights. In so doing, tribes won the right to establish gaming and casinos on tribal property or on property purchased by the tribe. Since then, tribes have been using the law to their advantage, just like any corporate entity would do. Essentially, they have been shrewd and to that end, I applaud them.
There are a myriad of problems within each tribal nation and each nation is unique. Also, within nations there are many different bands in that nation. For example, the Ojibwe nation spans from Eastern Ontario, through Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Montana, but each band of Ojibwe is its own autonomous nation. They all have unique culture and concerns, yet fall under the umbrella of the Ojibwe nation.
So...to make this long story short, tribes didn't actually own any land because it wasn't a cultural thing. Owning land is purely a European cultural thing that the tribes were forced to take on.

Whew...
That's Indigenous North American History 101...

 

[Salty]

Excellent post

 

[Reynolds]

Let's look at history and culture.
Historically tribal groups had migratory patterns of movement based upon food sources. If food sources were plentiful, tribes and clans would live in peace. However, warriors, in accordance with culture, would need to go and prove themselves. This often resulted in springtime raids on neighboring tribal villages where women would be stolen and forced to live in that community...until or if the original tribe had warriors strike back.
When resources were thin, wars would break out for food supplies. In Wisconsin and Minnesota there were many wars over the wild rice lakes.
Add in the arrival of Europeans, with a different culture and different land claims and you get greater movement and fighting over scarce resources. As tribal groups from Europe move in and cultural norms get displaced you see governments creating reservations for various cultures to exist with designated confines. These confines are counter-cultural to traditions and cause conflicts both outside and within the tribes. Some tribal members come to saving faith in Christ due to valiant efforts by missionaries like David Brainard and Jonathan Edwards (and many others) which also causes a rift in tribes.
When the US government creates reservations it declares tribal groups to become dependent sovereign nations, meaning that the indigenous nations are under the authority of the federal government, but are otherwise autonomous nations. This means States, counties and local authorities have no legal jurisdiction and cannot dictate rules on the reservation(s).
Indigenous nations then realized that they needed legal counsel to fight back against the federal government, since physical fighting had been crushed. They began sending their best and brightest to law schools and formed legal councils to fight against injustice and government failure to fulfill treaty rights. In so doing, tribes won the right to establish gaming and casinos on tribal property or on property purchased by the tribe. Since then, tribes have been using the law to their advantage, just like any corporate entity would do. Essentially, they have been shrewd and to that end, I applaud them.
There are a myriad of problems within each tribal nation and each nation is unique. Also, within nations there are many different bands in that nation. For example, the Ojibwe nation spans from Eastern Ontario, through Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Montana, but each band of Ojibwe is its own autonomous nation. They all have unique culture and concerns, yet fall under the umbrella of the Ojibwe nation.
So...to make this long story short, tribes didn't actually own any land because it wasn't a cultural thing. Owning land is purely a European cultural thing that the tribes were forced to take on.

Whew...
That's Indigenous North American History 101...

Tribal Police are mostly federally funded. Most make misd. cases in tribal court and all their felonies are prosecuted in Federal court.

 

[AustinC]

Tribal Police are mostly federally funded. Most make misd. cases in tribal court and all their felonies are prosecuted in Federal court.

Correct, because the tribal nations are dependants of the Federal Government. This is why there is the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) at the federal level.

 

[Salty]

Correct, because the tribal nations are dependants of the Federal Government. This is why there is the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) at the federal level.

But why should the BIA pay for a police dept of a tribe - that is bringing in plenty of cash - including the sales tax. The Oneida Nation can well afford to pay for their police dept.

One other thing - that sales tax - Indians of any tribe are exempt from paying the sales tax.

 

[AustinC]

But why should the BIA pay for a police dept of a tribe - that is bringing in plenty of cash - including the sales tax. The Oneida Nation can well afford to pay for their police dept.

One other thing - that sales tax - Indians of any tribe are exempt from paying the sales tax.

Very simple. This is the responsibility of the Sovereign nation who rules over the dependent sovereign nation. This is the policy and agreement.
Would you suggest that the US give full autonomous rule and sovereignty to every indigenous nation? Should those nations get all the land back that is written into the treaties that the federal government signed with these nations? Do you see the legal dilemma the federal government is in?
I applaud the indigenous nations. They have studied constitutional law and have used it against the federal government that stole its land. Kudos to these indigenous tribes.

 

[Salty]

Do you see the legal dilemma the federal government is in?.

NO! Does that mean we need to pay their electric bill, ect?

If they can afford it - then they should pay their own police dept
and the Oneida Nation, certainly can afford it.
s.[/QUOTE]

 

[AustinC]

NO! Does that mean we need to pay their electric bill, ect?

If they can afford it - then they should pay their own police dept
and the Oneida Nation, certainly can afford it.
s.

Once again, it has nothing to do with "if they can afford it." State governments suck off the teat of the federal government all the time. Even those who "can afford it." Indigenous tribes are using the legal system, under which they are umbrella'd to their full advantage. They are legally working under the system setup by the federal government. I hold no ill will toward them. They are doing exactly what the federal government gives them license to do. It's no different than a company exploiting a loophole in the tax laws to get out from paying taxes. Until the federal government changes its policy, keep doing what you are doing.

 

[Salty]

guess we disagree!

 

[AustinC]

guess we disagree!

We do.
I have legal precedent on my side, however.