Landmark Baptist thinking support?

[Squire Robertsson]

To differentiate themselves from other bodies calling themselves churches. These other bodies (Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, et al.) do not follow what is seen by some as NT polity. Historically, Baptists haven't been big on interdenominationalism.

And, why use the phrase "New Testament"?

 

[Shoostie]

To differentiate themselves from other bodies calling themselves churches. These other bodies (Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, et al.) do not follow what is seen by some as NT polity. Historically, Baptists haven't been big on interdenominationalism.

Their statement, in so many words, says they practice Believers Baptism by immersion. So, isn't it a given that denominations that don't practice Believers Baptism don't have valid baptisms? And, how does the qualification "New Testament church" disqualify Presbyterians, Methodists, and Lutheran? It's like they give a specific reason (Believers Baptism) to reject their baptism and then they give a meaningless vague reason (New Testament), meaningless unless they reject a significant number of Believers Baptism by immersion done at other churches.

I think it all comes down to, what you say, not being big on interdenominationalism, with a hint of "You ain't legitimate if you ain't in our denomination."

I was baptized in the SBC, and I've visited churches that won't accept my SBC baptism. How much less likely are they going to accept Pentecostal, Jehovah's Witnesses, and non-denominational Believers Baptism by immersion? All that's left are Landmark and Fundamentalist Baptist churches, and even then I don't have a lot of faith in their interdenominationalism -- that's a lot of churches that apparently aren't "New Testament churches.".

 

[robycop3]

If I'm making a tour to sample what other congregations are teaching, I avoid those I know have man-made doctrines. And most landmarkers & primitives have at least one - the KJVO myth.

I was baptized by a non-denom evangelist who was a true man of God's. Before that, I was saved by Jesus, and that salvation endures, as He said it would. I see no need to be rebaptized, even if I were to join another congregation, any more than I need to be "re-saved".

From the beginning of my committment to Jesus, He "told" me to avoid & work against all man-made false doctrines of faith/worship, & I've done so. And landmarkism/primitivism/bride of Christ seem chock/full of 'em.

 

[agedman]

To differentiate themselves from other bodies calling themselves churches. These other bodies (Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, et al.) do not follow what is seen by some as NT polity. Historically, Baptists haven't been big on interdenominationalism.

But is this not so even in SBC churches? Do they accept the baptism of lutheran, Methodists, (some presbyterian immerse, but child baptism is out)?

I'm not certain that these stand by the landmark is that different that the more conservative SBC church documents on what constitutes "believer baptism."

 

[Salty]

...I was baptized in the SBC, and I've visited churches that won't accept my SBC baptism. ... All that's left are Landmark and Fundamentalist Baptist churches, and even then I don't have a lot of faith in their interdenominationalism -- that's a lot of churches that apparently aren't "New Testament churches.".

Actually, you were never baptized in the SBC!!! The SBC does NOT baptism anyone. Now, you may have been baptized into a local independent Baptist church affiliated with the SBC! (same thing goes for ordination)

Many years ago -I was in a SBC affiliated church in Zweibruecken, Germany. We had a family come and join because they had just from a Landmark Baptist church, also in Sunny Zwei. The dad did want to join that Landmark church, but when told the pastor, he had been baptized in a Bible church (which was baptistic) the Landmark church said he had to be re-baptized, He refused to do so, as he believed (and I agree) that his baptism was scriptural. Thus he and family of 8 came to our church.

 

[Reformed]

I refer Landmarkers to John Dagg and leave it at that.

John Dagg's manuals of theology and church order do not get the attention they deserve. In some respects, he can be considered America's Spurgeon.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Could someone post a link to where Brother Dagg's books could be found?

 

[Shoostie]

Actually, you were never baptized in the SBC!!! The SBC does NOT baptism anyone. Now, you may have been baptized into a local independent Baptist church affiliated with the SBC! (same thing goes for ordination)

When someone says they were baptized in a SBC church, they mean they were baptized in a church that is affiliated with the SBC. There's nothing inappropriate about someone saying they were baptized in the SBC.

Many years ago -I was in a SBC affiliated church in Zweibruecken, Germany. We had a family come and join because they had just from a Landmark Baptist church, also in Sunny Zwei. The dad did want to join that Landmark church, but when told the pastor, he had been baptized in a Bible church (which was baptistic) the Landmark church said he had to be re-baptized, He refused to do so, as he believed (and I agree) that his baptism was scriptural. Thus he and family of 8 came to our church.

I'd expect the excessive desire for rebaptism costs Landmark-style churches members.

 

[Jerome]

Could someone post a link to where Brother Dagg's books could be found?

Here you go, Dagg's three part 'complete system of divinity':

I. A Treatise on Christian Doctrine

II. A Treatise on Church Order

(links are to the 1859 reprints issued in a single volume as Manual of Theology in Two Parts by the Southern Baptist Publication Society)

III. The Elements of Moral Science

(Also by Southern Baptist Publication Society, in 1860. Although it is essential for a full understanding of Dagg's theology, it's largely suppressed by Dagg's modern-day boosters as it includes his foul defense for Slavery)

from Dagg's preface to The Elements of Moral Science:

In the "Manual of Theology," recently published, the externals of religion are discussed only so far as they relate to ceremonies and church order. To render that work a complete system of divinity, a supplement is needed on Christian Morals.

 

[Jerome]

Evaluation of Dagg found in Theologians of the Baptist Tradition (eds. Timothy George & David Dockery):

"His Manual of Theology and all of his expressly theological writings were 'designed for the use of those who have not time and opportunity to study larger works on theology'....it is not an adequate introduction to the theological science for the student of theology."

"we should also note Dagg's ethical teachings—the source of his infamy....Dagg's Elements of Moral Science (1859) was the last major defense of slavery published in book form. While Dagg's ethics deserve a more extensive treatment, such must be left to the reader through perusing the work for oneself."

"Dagg makes no distinctive contributions to those engaged in the theological task today. His expositions of doctrine were typical of historic Christian positions formulated initially by others. However much it may be felt that the biblical orthodoxy of Dagg's theology must be recovered today, if theology is to avoid suicide and to express the true gospel of Christ, it must be admitted that, in most ways, it is better learned from others with more searching presentations of Scripture..."

 

[Reformed]

Could someone post a link to where Brother Dagg's books could be found?

John L. Dagg, Manual of Theology

John L. Dagg, A Treatise on Church Order

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Thanks

 

[robycop3]

Actually, you were never baptized in the SBC!!! The SBC does NOT baptism anyone. Now, you may have been baptized into a local independent Baptist church affiliated with the SBC! (same thing goes for ordination)

Many years ago -I was in a SBC affiliated church in Zweibruecken, Germany. We had a family come and join because they had just from a Landmark Baptist church, also in Sunny Zwei. The dad did want to join that Landmark church, but when told the pastor, he had been baptized in a Bible church (which was baptistic) the Landmark church said he had to be re-baptized, He refused to do so, as he believed (and I agree) that his baptism was scriptural. Thus he and family of 8 came to our church.

I was married 45 years ago i9n Westmoreland BC, Huntington, WV, which claimed to be SBC. It has a natatorium, & they conduct baptisms 1st Sunday each month. The pastor who married us, Hollis Hendon, was from AL & he returned there when he retired. (He's likely passed on since then.) I didn't investigate to see if they were actually SBC or not; it didn't matter to me then.

There are both LM & PB churches in the area. Since I was saved, I've never attended any of them, as they're all KJVO. And when I found out their baptism doctrine, I started advising new Christians to find a church home elsewhere.

I was baptized in Symmes Creek in & near Chesapeake, OH by a nondenominational evangelist, Scripturally, by full immersion in the name of Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, & don't believe I should ever be baptized in water again.

My current indy fundy church recognizes all Scriptural baptisms, & they baptize wherever they can, as they don't have a natatorium.

 

[agedman]

Here you go, Dagg's three part 'complete system of divinity':

I. A Treatise on Christian Doctrine

II. A Treatise on Church Order

(links are to the 1859 reprints issued in a single volume as Manual of Theology in Two Parts by the Southern Baptist Publication Society)

III. The Elements of Moral Science

(Also by Southern Baptist Publication Society, in 1860. Although it is essential for a full understanding of Dagg's theology, it's largely suppressed by Dagg's modern-day boosters as it includes his foul defense for Slavery)

from Dagg's preface to The Elements of Moral Science:

Thank you, Jerome.

I have book marked them to read, later.

 

[Salty]

When someone says they were baptized in a SBC church,
.

But thats not what you said. Your quote was "I was baptized in the SBC" You did not indicate church.
To me its a big difference.

 

[Jerome]

Oops:

would a IFB accept a SBC baptism

 

[Alan Gross]

In your opinion, is there any real support for "landmark baptist" thinking?

"Remove not the ancient landmark,
which thy fathers have set."
Proverbs 22:28

The Landmark 'thinking' may be reduced to three components.

1. The Priesthood of The Believer.

2. Believer's Baptism.

3. Eternal Security.

....

The Bible proofs of Baptist Perpetuity
may be found at this post,
here on The Baptist History Forum:

Baptist History by Baptist's 12:
TEN BIBLE PROOFS OF BAPTIST PERPETUITY

...

Baptist History by Baptist's
may also be found as a series of posts,
here on The Baptist History Forum:

The first one is, Baptist History by Baptists 1.
Identifying Jesus' churches.

...

I will continue this series and if God Seeks one person to show any love or interest toward Him or His churches that Jesus Built and Loves and Gave Himself for, and Has Been with, throughout The New Testament Age, then He May Direct them to get on their knees.

...