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Featured Landmark Baptists

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by MrW, Jul 7, 2023.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The handed down New Testament documents are the only God give church documents we have.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    First, let's see all of what GotQuestions says
    about Baptists and what they Believe
    , I, as a Landmark Baptist,
    will go with what I highlight in bold blue, in this first paragraph,
    and then, deal with the other things they say about Baptist origins, below.

    "Depending on whom you ask,
    the Baptist church can be the oldest of all traditions,
    or a newcomer hanging on the coattails of the Reformation.

    "It can be the standard-bearer of old-time, orthodox doctrine
    or the breeding ground of heresy.

    "The truth is that the answer depends on
    whether you are examining a particular group
    or the fundamental doctrines of that group.


    "Each Baptist group can trace its history
    to a particular starting point as an organization,

    but the roots go back
    to the very beginning of the Christian faith."

    GotQuestions continues by saying,

    "Tracking down the origins of the Baptist Church, in general,
    is an exercise in ancient church history.

    "From the days of the apostles, there was one Church of Jesus Christ,
    with a single body of doctrine taught by the apostles.

    "The various local churches preached repentance
    and confession of sins, along with baptism by immersion
    as an outward sign of the new life in Christ (Romans 6:3-4).

    "Under the authority of the apostles themselves as to doctrine,
    each church was independently governed
    by the leaders, God placed in them.

    "There was neither denominational hierarchy,
    nor distinction of “us/them” within the various churches.

    "In fact, Paul soundly rebuked the Corinthians
    for such divisions (1 Corinthians 3:1-9).

    "When disputes over sound doctrine arose,
    the apostles declared God’s teaching based
    on the words of the Lord and the Old Testament Scriptures.

    "For at least 100 years, this model
    remained the standard for all churches.

    "Thus, the characteristics that defined the earliest churches
    are the same that most Baptist churches identify with today.

    "Starting around A.D. 250, with the intense persecutions
    under Emperor Decius, a gradual change began to take place
    as the bishops (pastors) of certain notable churches
    assumed a hierarchical authority over the churches in their regions
    (e.g., the church of Rome).

    "While many churches surrendered themselves to this new structure,
    there was a substantial number of dissenting churches
    who refused to come under the growing authority of the bishops.

    "These dissenting churches were first called “Puritans”
    and are known to have had an influence
    as far as France in the 3rd century.

    "As the organized church gradually adopted new practices
    and doctrines, the dissenting churches
    maintained their historical positions.

    "The consistent testimony of the church for its first 400 years
    was to administer baptism to only those
    who first made a profession of faith in Christ.

    "Starting in A.D. 401, with the fifth Council of Carthage,
    the churches under the rule of Rome began teaching
    and practicing infant baptism.

    "As a result, the separatist churches began re-baptizing
    those who made professions of faith after having been baptized
    in the 'official church'.

    "At this time, the Roman Empire encouraged their bishops
    to actively oppose the dissenting churches,
    and even passed laws condemning them to death.

    "The re-baptizers became known as Anabaptists,
    though the churches in various regions of the empire
    were also known by other names, such as Novatianists,
    Donatists, Albigenses, and Waldenses.

    "These Anabaptist congregations grew and prospered
    throughout the Holy Roman Empire, even though they were
    almost universally persecuted by the Catholic Church.

    "By the Reformation, Martin Luther’s assistants complained
    that the Baptists in Bohemia and Moravia were so prevalent,
    they were like weeds.

    "When John Calvin’s teachings became commonly known,
    many of the Waldenses united with the reformed church.

    "Menno Simons, the founder of the Mennonites,
    organized the scattered community
    of Dutch Baptist churches in 1536.

    "From this point on, the various Anabaptist churches
    gradually lost their ancient names
    and assumed the name “Baptist,”
    though they retained their historic independence and self-rule.

    "The first English Baptist church was founded in 1612
    by Thomas Helwys and John Murton,
    who had come under the influence
    of the Dutch Puritans in Amsterdam.

    "This group became known as General Baptists,
    for their Arminian belief in general atonement.

    "Another English Baptist church was formed
    after a schism from Henry Jacob’s congregation
    in London in 1633.

    "This group held a Calvinistic theology of particular atonement
    and became the main influence
    in the English Particular Baptist movement.

    "The first Baptist church in America was founded
    by Roger Williams in 1638*.

    "During the colonial and federal periods,
    the Baptist churches prospered and spread,
    while being only loosely organized as a fellowship.

    "The first clear national organization
    was the General Missionary Convention
    of the Baptist Denomination in 1814.

    "This was called by Luther Rice to address
    the need of raising funds and workers
    to carry out the missionary mandate in foreign countries.

    "Some Baptist churches resisted this missionary emphasis
    and became known as Primitive Baptists.

    "When the Civil War broke out, the Baptists in the North
    and the South broke their fellowship
    and formed separate denominations.

    "Today, there are at least 65 different Baptist associations
    or denominations in the United States.

    "Some retain strict autonomy for the local church,
    while others have more of a denominational structure.

    "Some have very conservative views of doctrine and practice,
    while others are quite progressive and liberal.

    "Even within some groups there is a wide divergence of practice,
    so it is hard to pin down exactly what they believe."
    ...
    con't
     
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    All of the connections GotQuestions.org makes don't have to be perfect, because there were any number of hundreds of 'lines' of Baptist-type churches with Baptist-like Doctrines all along the way, from the time of Christ, as this article shows by saying in A.D. 100 essentially all churches were still hanging in there and following the New Testament pattern and were Baptist-type churches with Baptist-like Doctrines.

    They still say, "Each Baptist group can trace its history
    to a particular starting point as an organization,

    but the roots go back
    to the very beginning of the Christian faith."


    * And although GotQuestions.org says,
    "The first Baptist church in America
    was founded by Roger Williams in 1638, here are 8 articles and documents about Dr. John Clarke who established Newport and in the spring of 1638, a civic compact was signed and a Baptist church was organized. Doctor Clarke became its pastor. John Clarke, Colonial Baptist Minister and Leader


    **Roger Williams was in no way a Baptist by baptismal succession, which is what gives Baptist authority, in that he and one of his people 'baptized' each other!

    And whatever status Roger Williams had attained from that
    (nothing) he subsequently abanded anyway after 4 or 5 months.

    So, Roger Williams was not a Baptist in any sense.

    excerpts from: Was Roger Williams a Baptist?
    by M. R. Ellis, 1928


    "I shall confine myself to the questions of the establishment of the Baptist church in the colonies and the charter upon which our civic liberties were founded. The honor for both belongs to Dr. John Clarke, founder of Newport R. I., in 1639. Roger Williams was contemporary and active, and in no way should one deprive him of his deserved fame, but I would replace the laurel upon the brow of him to whom it rightfully belongs. Let us review the matters as briefly as possible..."

    "Doctor Clarke Comes to America: This same year, 1637, there landed from England, together with two brothers and a few friends, John Clarke, whose family name dates back to feudal times. He was a man educated far beyond the conditions of his time, bearing the titles of D.D. and M.D. It must be remembered that the Baptist church was organized by religious exiles who fled from England to Holland.

    "Doctor Clarke had obtained a liberal education in England and in Holland, where from the University of Leyden he received the degrees of D.D. and M.D., "being familiar with Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and medicine," and ordained a Baptist divine. He also sought unrestricted religious and civic freedom.

    "Finding this impossible, as had Williams, he gathered together about three hundred dissenters (among them the famous Anne Hutchinson), and sailed away for unincumbered land.

    "In 1638 this party landed on the north end of Acquidneck island (now Newport), in Narragansett bay. Portsmouth was established. Exploring the island, they moved south and established Newport.
    In the spring of 1638, a civic compact was signed and a Baptist church was organized. Doctor Clarke became its pastor, retaining that position during his life. He was also the moving spirit in municipal and civic affairs and the physical doctor of the colony.


    "Meantime, in 1638, Williams, with about twenty followers, moved from his retreat at Narragansett up the coast to a point where Providence is situated. There they kneeled and thanked "Providence" for their liberation. Thus came the name of that prosperous city. A civic compact was drawn up by Williams and signed by thirteen of his followers, five of them using the "X" mark as their signature. Evidently, they had no high degree of education...

    ** "Among Williams' following was Ezekiel Holliman.
    (One historian calls him Holyman.)


    "They adopted the 'Baptist faith', which required baptism.

    "Since none of them had been baptized, it was arranged that Holliman should baptize Williams, and then Williams baptized Holliman and others.
    (Some historians say this was by immersion; others say it was by effusion.)

    "Upon this baptismal episode, pathetic if not absurd, has grown the tradition of Roger Williams' fame as a Baptist.


    "It is not unlike the cherry tree story of Washington's boyhood or the apple tree and sword stories associated with the surrender of Lee to Grant at Appomattox.

    "All are myths, magnified by repetition into historical importance. After four or five months of this experience, discovering his error, Williams abandoned the project
    and retired to his estate in Narragansett, bought from his Indian friends with wampum and beads, then-current exchange with the Indians."
     
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    GotQuestions.org really?
    To define God's places of worship,
    What is Landmarkism? or What is “Baptist Bride”?

    How about seeing what the Bible says?

    My home church believes all these things, and more, now
    and, as some of you know, we have held these positions
    since our founding, by Baptist Authority succession, in 1786.

    And the Separatist Baptists from which we gained our authority
    to be founded as a like faith and order Baptist church
    held all these beliefs before that.

    We were Landmark before Landmark was cool.

    To say "Landmarkism had its beginning in 1851"
    isn't saying much for all the Landmark-believing churches
    that existed before that, back to the time of Christ.

    Our Landmark-type church was founded 65 years
    before the 1851 popularization of the name Landmark
    when J.R. Graves called a meeting of like-minded Baptists
    at the Cotton Grove Baptist Church near Jackson, Tennessee,
    to address five questions regarding pulpit affiliation
    with those whose testimony we would say are lost souls
    (if they believe in their heart what they teach)
    and then published their findings as the "Cotton Grove Resolutions".

    So, Landmarkism became a movement, and one
    which would contradict its own belief,
    if it were to say it started some new church truth.

    Wikipedia.org on Landmarkism says,
    "it upholds the perpetuity theory of Baptist origins,
    which asserts an unbroken continuity
    and exclusive legitimacy of the Baptist movement
    since the apostolic period.

    Landmarkism doesn't contradict its own belief
    by saying they began in 1851, for God's sake.

    Even GotQuestions.org says about Baptists
    and what they Believe
    that ALL BAPTISTS are LANDMARK,
    in that, they all may trace their origin to Jesus Christ.

    GotQuestions.org says,

    "Tracking down the origins of the Baptist Church, in general,
    is an exercise in ancient church history.

    "From the days of the apostles, there was one Church of Jesus Christ,
    with a single body of doctrine taught by the apostles.

    "The various local churches preached repentance
    and confession of sins, along with baptism by immersion
    as an outward sign of the new life in Christ
    (Romans 6:3-4).

    "Under the authority of the apostles themselves as to doctrine,
    each church was independently governed
    by the leaders, God placed in them.


    So, what is Landmarkism? or What is “Baptist Bride” according to GotQuestions.org? My comments in bold blue.

    "Landmark theology, or heritage theology, is the belief among some independent Baptist churches that only local, independent Baptist congregations can truly be called “churches” in the New Testament sense. Amen, exactly.

    "They believe that all other groups, and even most other Baptists, are not true churches because they deviate from the essentials of Landmarkism.
    Amen, exactly. Because they deviate from the essentials of The Lord's church in the New Testament and every other New Testament church.

    "Those essentials are;

    "1) church succession—a landmark Baptist church traces its “lineage” back to the time of the New Testament, usually to Jesus’ calling of the disciples in Galilee;
    Absolutely, Amen, exactly. So does GotQuestions.org.

    "2) a visible church—the only church is a local (Baptist) body of believers; there is no such thing as a universal Body of Christ;
    Amen, exactly. And no such thing in the Mind of Jesus or the Apostles, The New Testament, or anywhere else (except the books and writings and sin-cursed minds of fallen people).

    "3) opposition to “pedobaptism” (sprinkling of infants) and “alien immersion” (any baptism not performed under the auspices of a landmark Baptist church)—all such baptisms are null and void.
    Amen, exactly. (any baptism not performed under the auspices of a Baptist church, or a like faith and order New Testament church not using the name 'Baptist' or 'Landmark'.)

    "Another corollary belief is that only faithful landmark Baptists will comprise the Bride of Christ. That is true. The Greek Old Testament has 66 occurrences of ekklesia the word Jesus used for His New Testament assemblies He founded.

    Assemblies were important to God in the Old Testament and He was QUITE PARTICULAR and EXACTING in His instructions for HOW HE WAS TO BE WORSHIPPED.

    Jesus' assemblies that congregated to worship Him by His design are no different in The New Testament in that God is QUITE PARTICULAR and EXACTING in His instructions for HOW HE IS TO BE WORSHIPPED.

    AND HOW IS THAT? YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT.

    Jesus' New Testament assemblies that are organized faithful to His pattern and Doctrinal and Practical according to His Commands to worship Him will make up His Bride.


    "Other Christians (non-Baptists) will either be the guests or the servants at the marriage supper of the Lamb. These other Christians are called the “family of God” or sometimes the “kingdom of God.”

    Hebrews 12:23; "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,"

    "The general assembly"
    are the children of God not Scripturally baptized by the Authority of Baptist succession, who are saved in the Kingdom and Family of God, but have not been faithful in this life to worship according to the New Testament.

    The "church of the firstborn" are exactly what it says, those assembled in Heaven that were faithful to assemble in this life and worship God according to His pattern. They are the church assemblies of Jesus Christ.

    "So, in heaven will be all the redeemed (the “family of God”), but only those who have been duly baptized by immersion (in an independent Baptist church) will have the special honor of being the Bride of Christ. Those that are baptized and faithful to His House of worship, in this life, yes.

    "The landmark Baptists use the story of the choosing of Isaac’s wife to illustrate God’s choosing of Christ’s Bride (Genesis 24). Bible. And the entire Song of Solomon, having to do with the love between God and His assemblies that worship Him, by the BOOK, Old Testament or New Testament.

    "Landmark Baptists consider church membership one of the highest priorities in life; in fact, being a member of a landmark Baptist church is second in importance only to one’s personal relationship with Christ. Both absolutely true.

    "Because of their emphasis on local church membership (and their denial of the universal Body of Christ), landmark Baptists hold a closed communion; that is, only official members of their own local church are allowed to share in the ordinance of communion. Correct, on the money.

    "No one, not even a Baptist, can partake of the Lord’s table away from his or her home church." And they know that, having been taught all things whatsoever the Lord Commanded.
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    BaptistBasics.org really? Where are your best documents on ecclesiology, pointing to the Bible, that begins with Jesus building His Kind of church and saying that "the gates of Hell would not prevail against it"?

    "The Bible also provides a foundation of fundamentals or a skeletal body of essential truths referred to as “the faith” or “the truth” or “the doctrine” or “the tradition.”

    "The following study revolves around the use and meaning of "the faith” and its synonyms.


    "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. - Jude 3;

    ...
    Although this study does not specify a preferred denomination, it does provide the reader with a framework of clear Biblical principles that serve as a guide to identify the essential 6 characteristics of Biblical New Testament Christianity. THE FAITH Once Delivered .pdf

    AUTHORIZED Church Constitution Versus DIRECT AUTHORITY .pdf

    Ecclesiology A Study of the Church .pdf
    by Mark W. Fenison, ThM ( all three printed by our church).

    LANDMARKISM
    There are sixty-one items (articles, essays & books)
    at this link on Landmarkism.

    "Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set."
    Proverbs 22:28

    "Truly the old landmark once stood, and having fallen,
    it was deemed proper to reset it." (The Baptist Encyclopedia, 1881, p. 868.)

    "[T]here are many elements in Baptist history which bear an obvious and direct relationship to the tenets of the Landmark system and which clearly demonstrate that the architects of the movement, 'the Great Triumvirate,' were building on a foundation in Baptist life which was already laid."
    - LeRoy B. Hogue
    , "The Antecedents of Landmarkism"

    Landmarkism Under Fire
    A Study of Landmark Baptist Polity on Church Constitution
    by Elder J.C. Settlemoir


    Passing the Torch.
    The Baptist Bride.
    Compendium of Baptist History.
    By J. A. Shackelford, 1892


    ...


    What does BaptistBasics.org have to say for itself?

    "It is not that they held any new or revolutionary position.

    "They were responding to an attack on their own identity as an upstart group emerged to claim to be the one true church with the only true doctrines.

    "Conflicts and debates between Landmark Baptists and the Church of Christ (or “Campbellites” as Landmarkers liked to call them) were very common."

    "In The Baptist Heritage, H. Leon McBeth lists these positions as illustrative of Landmarkism’s stance on the church:

    1. "Baptist churches are the only true churches in the world.
    The true churches of Jesus Christ were Divinely Originated by Him and have existed, according to Him and The Bible since that time and will be on Earth until He Returns again. If they are not properly structured Baptist churches faithful to the Bible in their Organization, Doctrine, and Practice, what and where are they? Looks to me like you found them.

    2. "The true church is a local, visible institution. According to the Book, yes.

    3. "The churches and the kingdom of God are coterminous.
    "The churches and the kingdom of God are counter-coterminous if they are anything.

    4. "There must be no “pulpit affiliation” with non-Baptists. Not if they are going to tell the audience to be baptized to save them, etc., etc.

    5. "Only a church can do churchly acts. Like The Great Commission, Baptism, The Lord's Supper, etc. BINGO!

    6. "Baptist churches have always existed in every age by an unbroken historical succession. By the testimony of the Word of God 100% and the ancient and overwhelming evidence from Worldwide history for over 2000 years, yes.


    Beyond that, this article goes on to compare Landmark and Fundamental Baptists.
     
  6. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I use Wiki all the time - and I do check out the footnotes.

    How about this link?

    From the link
    They took their name from two passages in the Bible—“Do not remove the ancient landmark that your ancestors set up” (Proverbs 22:28), and “The wicked remove landmarks” (Job 24:2). In the Bible, these “landmarks” were physical markers that delineated property lines, but they also came to serve as a powerful metaphor.
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    They did OK, for someone that seems to also actively oppose the concept.

    And why wouldn't they be. You got a 'group' that acts like they are better than everyone else. When really, we're just Christians that would like everyone to join in and do like us if we're right, while not inviting those that baptism babies or baptism for salvation or that are going to teach about Mother Mary from the pulpit, etc.

    I like it.

    Thank you.

    "In The Trail of Blood, Carroll details a history of the church that traces the landmarks of legitimacy across Africa, through southern Europe, up to Wales, and into Germany, before crossing the Atlantic to America. While the Catholic Church was pursuing new doctrines of infant baptism, indulgences, and purgatory, a few persecuted Christians chose to hew closer to the teachings of the New Testament."

    I wonder how many a few persecuted Christians were? 8? 80 million? dunno.
     
    #27 Alan Gross, Jul 13, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2023
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    from:
    I answered the questions about,
    "Here are a few points that landmark theology fails to acknowledge:"

    here:
    Landmark Baptists #3

    more about I Corinthians 12:13, 27,

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
    whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free;
    and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."


    "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular".
    being one local body at Corinth here:


    more about Ephesians 4:4; "There is one body, and one Spirit,
    even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;"

    being one local body here:
    What kind of 'body' was it,
    when the saints at Corinth were "baptized into one body"?


    more about Ephesians 4:5; "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
    being water baptism here:
    Landmark Baptists #5
     
    #28 Alan Gross, Jul 13, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2023
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A denial of the New Testament for Biblical Baptist successionism.
     
    #29 37818, Jul 14, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2023
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    How is Roger Williams never being any kind of Baptist a "denial of the New Testament"?
     
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Roger Williams and his friend 'baptized' each other without Baptist authority by getting their baptism from a sponsor church or ordained minister sent out from a sponsor mother church that had Baptist authority, based on the New Testament promises the Lord made to the kind of church(es) He founded and built.

    John Clarke had Baptist authority as an ordained minister from England.

    Rest assured, dozens and hundreds of lines of succession came from Wales, England, Europe, and Africa, etc., since Columbus sailed the ocean blue, in 1492.

    John Clarke's work proved to be permanent, so the first permanent Baptist work may be said to be his.

    Roger Williams had no authority, although he wrongly guessed it needed to come from an Apostle, rather than by baptism from a successor to the Apostles.

    He quit whatever work he was involved in after 4 months, to not let controversial beliefs distract from his political career toward religious freedom. He did great service for our country and the world in that endeavor.

    from: Landmarkism Before J.R. Graves
    By Thomas Williamson, 2014

    Authority to Baptize


    "Landmark Baptists have been preoccupied with questions of which individuals and churches do, or do not, have the authority to baptize. They do not take the position that any religious society has the authority to administer the ordinance of baptism. Landmark churches will not accept “alien immersions” that they regard as irregular or without the authority of a true church behind them.

    "This emphasis did not begin with J.R. Graves - it can be found as early as the time of Roger Williams, founder of the Rhode Island colony who made a short-lived attempt to found a Baptist church in Providence in 1639. Richard Scott, who was a member of Williams’ church, later stated,

    "I walked with him in the Baptist’s way about 3 or 4 months, in which time he brake from the society, and declared that their baptism could not be right because it was not administered by an apostle.

    "Isaac Backus, in his History of New England (1777), p. 89, commented on this policy thus:

    "After gathering a Baptist church in Providence, Mr. Williams’ mind got so blundered, with that notion that many try to propagate to this day, of the necessity of a local succession from the apostles to empower persons to administer ordinances, and not being able to give in to the absurdity of deriving this power through the long scene of antichristian corruption, that he desisted from traveling with that church.

    "I heartily agree with Backus that it was and still is a “blunder” to believe that scriptural baptism can be administered only by an apostle or by a church that can document chain-link succession from an apostolic church to our time. The records that would be needed to demonstrate such a succession simply do not exist.

    "Roger Williams erroneously concluded that, in the absence of a clear chain of title from apostolic time to the 17th Century on the part of any church, therefore no true baptism could be administered.

    "He was the forerunner of some ideas held by extreme Landmarkers today who would insist that only churches that can document their succession from apostolic times can administer the ordinances. No such Baptist church today can provide the documentation to prove that they have such an impeccable chain of title.

    "Nevertheless, we see here the seed of the idea that not all churches or ministers are scripturally qualified to administer the ordinance of baptism, going as far back as the early 17th Century."
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Quote the specific New Testament rule. And what proof it wasn't followed.

    Self-baptizer, John Smyth, John Smyth | Puritan leader, Separatist, Dissenter

    Timeline of Baptist and Reformed History, 17th Century | The Reformed Reader
     
    #32 37818, Jul 15, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2023
  13. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Well, I did not realize that the Baptist Church is to sponsor Bingo!
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    ACTS OF THE APOSTLES by: H. Boyce Taylor

    This 'read' gives a rundown of the authority of Baptist-like activity in the book of Acts.

    The Baptism Commanded from heaven is committted Only to Baptists

    "Having been buried with him in the baptism in which also ye were raised with (him) through the faith of the energy of the God, the one having raised him from the dead." (Colossians 2:12, literal translation.)

    This article calls Authority in Baptism a matter of doctrine,
    by seeing the subject of having no authority being dealt with;

    A Matter of Doctrine

    "We are told in Acts 19:1-4 something of baptism without authority. At Ephesus, Paul found about a dozen disciples who claimed to have John's baptism. Probably they had been dipped by Apollos, who later learned ". . . the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:24-28), but this point is irrelevant. The Bible does not say that these men had John's baptism. The Bible says that "they said, Unto John's baptism." That is, they claimed to have, perhaps they really believed they had, John's baptism.

    "Attempts to distinguish between John's baptism and later Christian baptism, attempts to make the doctrine of John the Baptist and of the apostle Peter different from the doctrine of Paul - such attempts are mere hogwash. When these disciples showed their ignorance of New Testament doctrine while claiming the baptism of John, Paul immediately summarized the teaching of John as identical with that of all true New Testament teachers, "saying unto the people, that they should believe . . . on Christ Jesus."

    "The point is that New Testament doctrine must accompany New Testament baptism. Only so do we have the baptism of our text, "through the faith of the energy of the God that raised him (Christ) from the dead." So instructed, the disciples at Ephesus "were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" that is, under His authority through an official minister of His church.


    "It is always so. Where Christ is honored, His word is believed, His body is respected. The authorized administrator of the baptism that pictures His gospel is the church that He instituted and that He promised to be with to the end of the age. This is the only kind of church that believes and obeys His word and so can teach other disciples to obey Him."

    ROGER WILLIAMS

    In October of 1635 he was banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony on account of his religious opinions. Driven from white men, he became a missionary to the Indians from whom he bought the land that made up the Providence Plantation. Friends joined him in the new colony, and they organized a church after the pattern of the New Testament. There was no Baptist minister in the group to whom they could repair for baptism, so Roger Williams was baptized by one of their number, Ezekial Holliman; and in turn Williams baptized Holli-man, and some ten others. Both the General and Particular Baptists in England held that in case no administrator could be had, it was lawful for two believers to begin baptism; and they quoted the Scriptural authority of John the Baptist. Be that as it may, the case had no historical repercussions as far as our Baptist churches, our Baptist pastors, and our Baptist policy are concerned. John T. Christian in A HISTORY OF THE BAPTISTS, Volume II, p. 40, writes, "This baptism of Williams has been the occasion of much heat and strife; but it is difficult for me to understand what sig-nificance it has in Baptist history. So far as is known, not one Baptist church or minister came out of the Providence church of this period or was anywise affected by the baptism of Williams.



    JOHN CLARKE

    The real beginning of our Baptist work in Rhode Island came from Dr. John Clarke, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Newport, organized about the same time that Roger Williams began his work in Providence. Doctor Clarke was a Baptist minister before he came to America. He was a "Particular" or Calvinistic Baptist educated at the University of Leyden in Holland. To him more even than to Roger Williams ought to go the credit for the organization of the noble colony of Rhode Island with its grant of full religious liberty to all, and certainly must go the distinction of beginning the Baptist work that so marvelously multiplied in America. But even Dr. John Clarke would be amazed at the suggestion that he founded the first "Baptist Church." He was just one of the long line of Baptist preachers who faithfully proclaimed the truth of Christ through the ages.

    If all the online sources can eliminate John Smyth, somehow, anyhow, since they know Roger Smith is messed up by 'baptizing' himself, and so they say the same thing about Smyth(?)(I'm not buying into all they say), then no one is claiming a Pedigree specifically and exclusively through either of them, anyway, as the drop-dead end-all clincher of all clinchers.

    This stuff is important and has been debated for a long time, especially since it hangs The Catholics and Protestants out in the lurch, as having no authority to conduct business for God.

    The Protestants had their own study of it and found A.) themselves between a rock and a hard place, because they came from the Roman Catholic church they say had no authority to start with and then B.) they look over at the Baptists and they have the authority. J.R. Graves wrote a book about it.

    The trilemma : Graves, J. R. (James Robinson), 1820-1893 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    The Protestant Trilemma

    Do you think all the Anabaptist Mennonites and other similar groups not necessarily named, only talked to John Smyth and indoctrinate him alone into Baptist-type Doctrine?

    John Smyth's church BUILDING has been permanent, along with the Baptist work he did there at that time, but I said here, there were dozens if not hundreds of lines of Baptist authority in baptism they brought with them from the old world.

    con't
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Jamestown massacre took place in a Baptist settlement in 1622 and completely wiped them out. But, it had been there since 1607.

    Many massacres of this type were typical in the new America. Were there other foundings of Baptist-like churches prior to 1607-09
    that ended by disbanding, or other reasons? Sure.

    According to the Bible, the Lord's churches lived on, from the first century, until now and until He comes again.

    The Jamestown massacre.

    "The Jamestown massacre, took place in the English Colony of Virginia, in what is now the United States, on 22 March 1622. John Smith, though he had not been in Virginia since 1609 and was not an eyewitness, related in his History of Virginia that warriors of the Powhatan "came unarmed into our houses with deer, turkeys, fish, fruits, and other provisions to sell us".[1] The Powhatan then grabbed any tools or weapons available and killed all the English settlers they found, including men, women, children of all ages. Chief Opechancanough led the Powhatan Confederacy in a coordinated series of surprise attacks, and they killed a total of 347 people, a quarter of the population of the Virginia colony.

    Jamestown, founded in 1607, was the site of the first successful English settlement in North America, and was the capital of the Colony of Virginia. Its tobacco economy, which quickly degraded the land and required new land, led to constant expansion and seizure of Powhatan lands, which ultimately provoked the massacre.

    from:
    They have 1608 for Smyth's dealings with the Anabaptist Mennonites, in 1608, then say Baptists are said to have their start in 1609.

    Did they forget about the Anabaptist Mennonites, in 1608? What happened to them and when they started? They have 'Baptist' in their name.

    "1608
    • "Smyth’s congregation fled to Holland to avoid Anglican persecution. Met Mennonites (one of several Anabaptists groups)
      Smyth became convinced that believer's baptism was biblical and infant baptism was not and after having adopted Baptist principles in Holland"

    "1609 is unofficially referred to as the beginning of the Baptist denomination."
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Baptists are New Testament Christians traced to the first century churches, it is because the New Testament documents are handed down from first century churches.
     
    #36 37818, Jul 15, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2023
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    T
    That last word threw me for a loop. It took 2 or 3 takes to figure out what you were talking about. Whew.
     
  18. Mike Stidham

    Mike Stidham Member
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    Totally on point. Alexander Campbell's divisive so-called "unity" movement, and his claim that the movement was THE restoration of the New Testament Church, required a response. Landmarkism
    at worst pushed the pendulum too far in the other direction.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    IMHO, their Baptist and Baptist-like forerunners held to the very Bible positions that the Landmark movement emphasized and articulated.

    A history of Baptism, since the New Testament;

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    "History of Immersion for Baptism in England

    "The history of Christianity in England is divided into various time periods. Most historians sub-divide the history of Christianity prior to the Norman Invasion of 1066 into two major periods.

    The first period is the Era of Briton Christianity (c. A.D. 100‑c. 600) (32), and the second period is the Era of Anglo-Saxon Christianity (C. 600 - C. 1100),(33)."

     
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Well, to start with, they say, "Landmarkism is a Baptist ecclesiology", whereas I would say that "Baptist ecclesiology is Landmarkism".

    What historical group of Baptist-like baptized believers that assembled officially, from the time of Christ weren't also Landmark-like?

    From their definition, below, and my descriptions of Baptists and/or Landmarkers, how are Baptist-like positions and Landmark-like positions any different from one another?

    "In Christian theology, ecclesiology is the study of the Church,

    the origins of Christianity, Christianity began in Eternity Past, of which Adam and Eve were the first recipients. New Testament Christianity began with John the Baptist. Out of the "building material" ( the Apostles) he had baptized by the Authority of God, Jesus built His first ekklesia, or called-out together assembly of His kind, Jesus called, "My church".

    its relationship to Jesus, Jesus is the Head of each individual church of His, called "Landmark", or of all those churches of like faith and order before that word was ever associated with Baptist-like believers in their Doctrine and Practice as well as Organizationally.

    its role in salvation, the Lord's churches preach a pure, unadulterated, faith in Jesus blood for salvation and that "church affiliation", otherwise, is irrelevant to salvation.

    its polity, the government of New Testament churches is democratic, with all members having one vote, including the pastor.

    its discipline, Believer's baptism, not excepting alien immersion, and Closed Communion (because we don't know if Christians from other churches are under church Discipline or whether they are Christians) and church Discipline itself all are designed the protect the Lord's churches.

    its eschatology, Jesus is Returning as the Apostles saw Him Ascend to Heaven.

    and its leadership. God called, Jesus saved, and Holy Spirit appointed, only, by the congregation in prayer to their Head, not from "the home office", etc.
     
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