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Law of the Land

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Revmitchell, Feb 4, 2021.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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  2. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ New Member

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    The social contract, written by men and known as "the Constitution," is a red herring here.

    "We all must obey the laws of the land." Yes, that is true. But the law of the land is not man's law, it is God's Law, which is the Supreme Law of the land, and the basis of all law in America. Anybody that believes that the Law of God and the law of the land are separate, they've deluded themselves. That's not living in the truth, that's living in an image of someone else's idea. Is there any law that man can create which sets the bounds of God's Law?
     
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean we should live according to the OT Law?

    peace to you
     
  4. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ New Member

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    No, not at all.

    Scripture tells us to test people, to see if they are of God or not.

    1 John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

    This only makes sense, when one is sincerely interested in associating with godly people, while avoiding the contamination and influence of ungodly men.

    The key, however, to the rejection of the rule of God was Article VI, Clause 3, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several state Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

    "All the more remarkable is that Article VI, prohibiting any religious test for public office was not only historically unprecedented and a radical departure from the established pattern of religious discrimination throughout the world at that time, but it was at variance with the prevailing patterns and practices in all of the original colonies, and during their early years of statehood." (James E. Woods, "No Religious Test Shall Ever Be Required: Reflections on the Bicentennial of the U.S. Constitution," Journal of Church and State, vol. 29, no. 2, (Spring 1987): p. 201).

    Henry Abbot recognized the danger of this, ". . . if there be no religious test required, pagans, deists, and Mahometans might obtain offices among us, and that the senators and representatives might all be pagan." (North, Political Polytheism, p. 391).

    He also writes, "We must understand what this means. It means that civil officers are not under an oath to the God of the Bible. It means that in the exercise of their various offices, civil magistrates are bound by an oath to a different god. That god is the American People, considered as an autonomous sovereign who possesses original and final earthly jurisdiction" (ibid., p. 391).

    Article VI was a break with the Christian covenants of over one thousand years. Charles Pinckney, who introduced the clause, clearly recognized that this was a break with the Christian covenants of over one thousand years. It was, "a provision the world will expect from you in the establishment of a system founded on Republican Principles and in an age so liberal and enlightened as the present" (James E. Woods, "No Religious Test Shall Ever Be Required: Reflections on the Bicentennial of the U.S. Constitution," Journal of Church and State, vol. 29, no. 2, (Spring 1987): p. 199).

    The states approved, for whatever reason, of a document at odds with their own constitutions, which, for a time, they were able to retain. "In the historical context of the era, the 'religious Test' cannot be understood as referring to anything other than the Christian oaths required by the state constitutions" (Greg Loren Durand, "The Constitution: America's Covenantal Apostasy").

    Indeed, this principle has played itself out in our history. When William Brennan was appointed to the Supreme Court, the Senate questioned him on his Catholicism, worried that his allegiance to another sovereign might affect his decisions. He replied: "My answer to the question is categorically that in everything I have done, in every office I have held in my life or that I shall ever do in the future, what shall control me is the oath that I took to support the Constitution and laws of the United States and so act upon the cases that come before me for decision that it is that oath and that oath alone which governs" (Samuel A. Mills, "Parochiaid and the Abortion Decisions: Supreme Court Justice William J. Brennan versus the U.S. Catholic Hierarchy," Journal of Church and State , vol. 34, no. 4, (Autumn 1992): p. 753).

    Anyone who is an officer in the civil government must swear allegiance to Constitutional law as the highest law. Greg Loren Durand concludes from this: "Therefore, the elimination of a public oath to uphold the Kingship and Law of Jesus Christ in the civil realm automatically erected an ethical 'wall of separation' between the Crown Rights of Christ and the new Federal Government, thereby barring all Christians from ever holding public office from that time forward…The United States' insistence that its citizens render 'unqualified allegiance to the nation and obedience to the laws of the land…,' even when it explicitly refuses to 'kiss the Son,' creates a dilemma for American Christians, who must understand that 'unqualified allegiance' belongs only to the King of kings" (Greg Loren Durand, "The Constitution: America's Covenantal Apostasy").

    The Constitution was a rebellion against Christ and His authority over the nation, replacing it with the rule of man. The Bible warns us, "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" (Isaiah 2:22).

    An objection is that the Constitution contains Christian principles and therefore is a sort of halfway covenant. As evidence of this, they may offer that the Constitution presents us with a system of divided authority and diffused powers. Even covenant-breaking historians would admit that Christian principles exist within the Constitution while denying that it is a Christian covenant. The problem with this is that every government that exists contains Christian principles. In fact, any truth or correct morality is a Christian principle. All true and good principles are Christian principles because this universe is created and governed by the true and living God who has revealed Himself in the Bible. Islamic governments contain many Biblical principles, such as capital punishment. That does not, however, save them from condemnation as apostate covenants. We must return to the question, what sort of Christian principles constitute a Christian government and what make an apostate government? The Biblical covenant model is the Biblical model and therefore the only proper judge of whether or not a state is a covenant-keeping one.

    In Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961), the United States Supreme Court holds that the state of Maryland can not require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause. This verifies that the U.S. Constitution allows Atheists to rule and make laws for bondservants of Christ!
     
  5. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You realize Scripture allows for this as well?
     
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We also have to remember that it is not up to individuals to decide what is, or is not, constitutional. This is the role of the courts (ultimately the United States Supreme Court).

    This is how we ended up with laws prohibiting SSM as being unconstitutional (considering the the OP, against "the law of the land").

    But don't take my word for it. When it comes to politics @Reformed1689 always agrees with me. :)
     
  7. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ New Member

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    You will render to the authority that you have submitted to.

    You hear the phrase, "The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land." That's not what the Word of God says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). Did the Constitution create the heaven and the earth? So how could it be the law of the land? Only He who creates, God, is the Law of the land. "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Colossians 1:17). Christ is before the Constitution, and by Jesus, not the Constitution, all things consist.

    John 1:3, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
    Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

    All things were created by Him and for Him, not "by the people, and for the people" (Democracy); not for our enjoyment, not for our wants. We were created for God.

    The sole purpose of constitutions is to free human beings from God's Law in order to chain them to the morality of the State dictated in its codes, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes, public policies, executive orders, laws, etc. All constitutions were created by the fallen reason of the natural man, and are molded by the "reasonable interpretation" of human beings wearing black robes. Private rights are always weighed against the greater public good and are regulated by the "police power".

    Those who thus rely upon the words of any constitution for support are leaning upon a broken reed; and their sense of security is a false one. The Constitution does not protect persons or property against unjust invasion, or prevent government control and regulation of business. After all, this depends on the interpretations and applications of the courts. Constitutional law is the morality of fascism and comes from the vain imaginations of men. It is a code, rule, or regulation for the dead thing it brings into being. Corporations are dead, at law. The United States is a Federal corporation. Thus, the United States is a dead thing.

    “We are under a Constitution, but the Constitution is what the judges say it is.” Charles Evans Hughes, Supreme Court Justice, in Dictionary of American Maxims (1955), p. 88.
    Rather, free will allows for this possibility.

    My ppl are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
     
  8. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    I suggest that you take a look at Christ's perspective on nations:

    [Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    His Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, is separate from all the kingdoms of this world. He charged us to obey our worldly leaders unless that meant doing things that are against our Christian faith. That's His direction to Christians not everyone in America. America is governed by the Constitution and its laws. A Christian's objective should be to live peaceably in America as much as possible not to force other Americans to abide by Biblical law. We can resist, go to jail as many apostles did or even be martyred for our faith if we feel led by the Holy Spirit to do so. Paul was a Roman citizen and proud of it but he was jailed many times and eventually killed for his faith.

    Freedom of Religion means that everyone has the right to worship their god as they see fit or to worship none at all. It does not mean that Christians have the right to force their religion on everyone else.
     
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  9. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ New Member

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    Are you of Him? Of His kingdom? If you're saved, then yes of course! So what are you doing holding up the unclean thing? Come out from among them, and be ye separate, touch not the unclean thing and He will receive you.
    ...and so should we also be separate from the things/kingdoms of the world.

    This is a patent falsehood taught throughout evangelical Christianity.

    Rather, "worldly leaders" are what we are to avoid.

    Compromising with temporal powers can never lead to redemption. Most "Christians" have accepted the unrighteous code of the State, instead of insisting that the State follow the Laws of Almighty God. Let's examine the difference between the two, between Law and force. The kingdoms of this world use force, for there is no love in what they do. Whereas the kingdom of God uses Law, for love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8).

    There is only one lawgiver (James 4:12). This one lawgiver is the Lord (Isaiah 33:22). Man does not have authority to make laws, but only the authority to make ‘ordinances’ which enforce Laws already in existence, which are the Laws of God. To obey the so-called ‘laws’ conjured up by the worldly governing authorities is to set aside the gospel of our Lord, and place oneself under a separate government, other than His.

    Bondmen of Christ are not citizens of any country on this earth, our citizenship is in heaven, and so our first loyalty is to God, not "our" country (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20). Ours is a better, heavenly country (Hebrews 11:16).

    Throughout the scripture, governments have always been the leader in bringing people to sin (Daniel 3:4-6, 1 Kings 12:25:33; 14:21-24, 2 Kings 13:2; 17:21; 21:11,16, 2 Chronicles 21:6,11-13, Isaiah 9:16). God condemned Israel for wanting to be ruled like other nations, by a human king (1 Samuel 8:4-5,20). When they chose to be ruled by a human leader, our Father considered that to be a rejection of Himself because He would not then reign over them (1 Samuel 8:7; 10:19). The people later realized their sin against God when they asked to be ruled by a human government (1 Samuel 12:19). Notice their kings never had any power to make new laws; nor did their best and wisest of kings make any, as in the cases of David and Solomon. And when a return to the ways of the Lord was made among them, as by Hezekiah and Josiah, it was not by making any new regulations, but by putting the original Law into execution; and by directing and requiring of the judges, and other officers, to act according to that Law.

    To serve an earthly king, or his government, is to serve other gods (1 Samuel 8:8-9), which is violating the First Commandment (Exodus 20:3). It is wickedness and a sin to ask to be ruled by a human government instead of God (1 Samuel 12:17-19). Our Father condemned Israel for following the statutes of their disobedient government (2 Kings 17:7-8). He rejected those who followed the statutes of governments instead of His Commandments (2 Kings 17:19-20). He specifically said not to follow the ordinances of earthly governments, but to follow his laws, ordinances, and statutes instead (Leviticus 18:1-5). Throughout the history of Israel, the majority of the kings of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord (1 Kings 11:4-9, 2 Kings 8:18), which shows that most rulers and governments are corrupt because of their carnal nature (Romans 8:7). The Jews eventually chose king Caesar over King Jesus (John 19:15). Those who do the same are just like them.

    The whole duty of man is to live by God's commandments (Ecclesiastes 12:13), not man's commandments which turn from the Truth (Mark 7:7, Colossians 2:20-22, Titus 1:14). What duty is there to a servant of Christ except to fulfil God's Law (Romans 13:8)? When we pray, we pray to do our Father’s Will, not man’s will (Matthew 6:10, Luke 11:2). God rewards those who place His Laws above man-made laws (Exodus 1:17,20). We are even instructed to avoid going to courts of law before the unjust and unbelievers (1 Corinthians 6:1-8). How incredible that the just would go before the unjust for justice! Therein no blessings are found:

    Psalms 1:1, "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly."
    The kings and rulers of the earth are against the Lord, and against his anointed (Psalm 2:2). Governments frame mischief and sin through their laws:

    Psalms 94:20, "Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?"
    Isaiah 10:1-2, "Woe unto them that prescribe grievous laws and take away the right from the poor."

    When a government is ungodly, and people trust in that government, then God will punish those who trust in that government and obey their laws (Jeremiah 15:4; 46:25, 2 Kings 21:11-12, Isaiah 9:16, Ezekiel 11:10-12, Micah 6:13,16). The people will be cursed for trusting in man (Jeremiah 17:5, Hosea 10:13). It is better to trust in the Lord, than to put confidence in man and governments (Psalm 118:8-9). We are told not to put our trust in human governments (Psalm 146:3). We are commanded to "turn away" from those with certain characteristics (2 Timothy 3:2-5), and governing authorities possess most of these said characteristics! Governing authorities are "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away" (2 Timothy 3:5). So we are to turn away from governing authorities with these characteristics. They proclaim their own power (force), which becomes a 'law' unto itself. The law is made for evil-doers, not for the righteous (1 Timothy 1:9-10). Therefore, we are to obey God's Law, and whatever laws that man creates are irrelevant to us.

    Esther 3:8, "And Haman (the highest prince in the kingdom of the Medes and the Persians) said unto king Ahasuerus (the king of the Medes and the Persians who reigned from India to Ethiopia), There is a certain people (people who were obedient to God's Laws) scattered abroad and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of thy kingdom; and their laws are diverse from all people; neither keep they the king's laws..."

    As we can see, God's children were following God's Law, which were diverse from the government's law, and His children did not keep the government's law! When one reads the book of Esther, one will see how God protected His children when they followed His law and disregarded the government's law. One cannot obey both laws, because one cannot serve two masters.

    What did Jesus teach about the governments of men? Let us examine three parallel Gospel accounts. He himself explained:

    Matthew 20:25, "...Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. "

    Mark 10:42, "...they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them."

    Luke 22:25, "...The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors."

    By comparing these three parallel verses, Jesus stated the fact that the governing authorities (princes, rulers, kings) exercise authority over the Gentiles (those who do not believe in God). Note that the term "Gentiles" here cannot mean "Gentile Christians", because Jesus had not yet died to confirm the New Testament, and "Christianity" was not yet in existence. All the apostles were Jews, and Jesus commanded them not to preach to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5-6). The Gentiles were the enemy of Christ at this point (Matthew 20:19; Mark 10:33, Luke 18:32). The Gospel was not preached to the Gentiles until at least 10 years after the resurrection of Jesus (Acts 9:15; 10:45; 11:1,18; 13:42,46-48).

    Notice what Jesus says next. Does he say that His people will have other men rule over them? Most definitely not!

    Matthew 20:26, "But it shall not be so among you:"

    Mark 10:43, "But so shall it not be among you:"

    Luke 22:26, "But ye shall not be so:"

    Jesus said we shall not have leaders exercise authority over us like they do over the gentiles. We shall not be subject to governing authorities unless those in "power" are servants of God and His people. Read what Jesus said after he told his disciples that earthly princes, rulers, and kings will not have authority over His chosen:

    Matthew 20:26-27, "…but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:"

    Mark 10:43-44, "…but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all."

    Luke 22:26, "...but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve."

    (continued...)
     
  10. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ New Member

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    ...continued...

    As we see, Jesus does not want man to have authority over man! He commanded that whoever is the chiefest and greatest among men, will be the servant of all. Unlike human governments which make their chief ruler the dictator of all. Man was not created to rule other men, but was given dominion over the creatures of the earth. This is confirmed in the very first chapter of the Bible, when God created the earth. When our Father created the earth. When he first created man, He commanded, "...let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26,28). Only God has dominion over man. Man is not subject to any other man. Man is ruled by Law, not by the will of man.

    Now, Jesus was not condemning all authority, as is clear from the fact that Jesus himself exercised authority over his disciples and others (Matthew 11:27; 23:10; 28:18, John 13:13), and expected his disciples to exercise authority as leaders of his congregation (Matthew 16:19; 18:17; 24:45-47; 25: 21,23, Luke 19:17,19). What sort of authority then was Jesus condemning in this passage? What difference was there between the authority of the gentile ruler and that of himself and his apostles? Surely this, that the latter rested on spiritual ascendancy and was exercised only over those who willingly submitted to it, whereas the former was exercised over all men indiscriminately whether they liked it or not, and for this reason involved the use of the sanctions of physical force and penalties. There can be no doubt that it was this fact that caused Jesus to tell his disciples: "It is not so among you."

    When an earthly government believes it is "god walking on the earth," it has no true dominion (authority) but only force, and has fallen from the Grace of Almighty God. Dominion and force are opposed to one another. Force is false power.

    Matthew 23:10, "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

    Remember, the reason Jesus Christ was crucified was because the governing "authorities" at that time were afraid that they were going to lose their "place and nation," their political power, if the people believed on Jesus (John 11:47-48).

    And what about the apostles' teaching?

    Acts 5:29, "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."

    The reason the apostles were arrested and most eventually executed was because they "all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus" (Acts 17:7). Our brother Paul said,

    1 Corinthians 2:5, "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

    The apostles disobeyed their governing authorities because, "No man can serve two masters" (Matthew 6:24), and we are not to be "the servants of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23). We can only serve one lord, one Messiah, and no other lord. As Jesus asked in Luke 6:46, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" We are to do the things Jesus says to do, not the things Caesar says to do.

    Do you remember when people used to call their government officials, like the police, our "public servants"? Why? Because they were supposed to serve people (Matthew 20:27, Mark 10:42, Luke 22:26). Now, those servants have become the masters, and they are feared more than they fear God (Matthew 10:28, Proverbs 29:25). However, true servants of God do not fear the king’s commandments (Hebrews 11:23). We are not to fear man (Psalm 56:4; 118:6, Isaiah 51:7, Matthew 10:28, Hebrews 13:6).

    The earthly government is to sit on Christ’s shoulder (Isaiah 9:6), and there is no end to His government (Isaiah 9:7, Psalms 145:13). Those in government are instructed to follow God's Law and serve Him (Psalm 2:10-12). And we are to obey the ordinances of man as long as they do God’s Will; through punishing evildoers and praising them that do well (Romans 13:3, 1 Peter 2:13-17).
     
    #10 sojourner4Christ, Feb 21, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The history of the world is full of governments attempting to force religion on its people. They all end with oppression and murder of those who disagree.

    The problem is evident in your statements that unless you see things the way you do, then you are worshipping Satan.

    Were you in charge, no doubt all satan worshippers would be put to death and all who disagree with you are Satan worshippers.

    No thank you. Thank God for the USA and our constitution.

    peace to you
     
  12. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ New Member

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    Indeed, religion has been the weapon of choice of tyrants.
    Indeed, to which some will follow that unclean spirit of fear with its master, while others will stand with the spirits of power, love and a sound mind with their Master (2 Tim 1:7).

    We are to be overcomers, not politically correct wimps. ...they overcame [the accuser]...and they loved not their lives unto the death (Rev 12:11).

    Our Lord never called His people to help build the tower of Babel in the hope of getting a Bible study in the basement. He commanded us to build our own city on a hill.
    That's a strawman statement, a non sequitur. Rather, again, it's the Lord who says that no man can serve two masters (Mat 6:24; Luk 16:13).
    When people cannot rebut the truth, they resort to such ad hominems. People react violently when their traditions are ignored or exposed.
    The USA is a corporation, at law, a dead thing. And people can talk all they want to about a Christian Constitution, but they will never be able to get around the fact that God is not even mentioned in it.
    The naivete of that question is now made manifest.

    If your reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because you cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes, etc. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

    God in His sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

    If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

    Matthew 13:44, “The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.”
     
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    How are getting online to make these statements without using Caesar’s electricity and internet service?

    It seems you are navigating a worldly kingdom like everyone else.

    peace to you
     
  14. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    And since Jesus said no man can serve 2 masters, which one do you serve?
     
  15. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    I serve Jesus, my Lord and God and His Kingdom. Which one do YOU serve.
     
  16. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ New Member

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    ...in the world, but not of the world.

    I pay for whatever I use. The Body of Christ is not made up of thieves. I owe Caesar nothing because I take nothing from Caesar, and I don't reside in his fictions. I'm not his slave, I am a bondservant of Christ.

    It’s one thing to be located in these environments; it’s another thing to draw from them as a source for information and behavior.

    “In” the World = Our Point of Location

    “Of” the World = Our Source of Information

    I’m less concerned with my point of location than I am with my source of information. I often place myself in locations where non-Christian cultural worldviews are strong. My calling forces me into situations that are challenging and I am still curious and adventurous enough to choose locations that are unfriendly to Christianity. I step away only when I recognize the environment is starting to change the way I think. IOW, I back off when I realize my point of location has become my source of information.

    Getting back to the OP, I have successfully rebutted, with Scripture, the myth that "The U. S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land."
     
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Still not sure the point you are making. Should we follow OT Law? Should everyone just do what they think scripture tells them to do? Should we ignore Federal and State laws as non-binding to Christians?

    If your spouse commits adultery, should you and the church stone them to death?

    If you disobey state or federal law, you will be held accountable to a secular court. You can claim you follow the Law of God, and people have claimed that before, but a secular judge will still pass judgment.

    peace to you
     
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  18. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ New Member

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    Check the last sentence of my previous post.
    and
    The OT issue has been answered, as well.
    That question is not as abstract as it might appear. In truth, not many are seeking Jesus' face, consequently, the majority are hellbound (Mat 7:13).

    As for the remainder of your questions, here's some food for further thought:

    The purpose of government is clearly defined in our Father's Word. That is, to punish evil and to praise those that do well. From this, the protection of life, liberty, and property (being gifts from God) follows in accordance with His Order.

    But when a government falls into idolatry, it collects information from you because it must know where everyone and everything is, in order to tax or seize it.

    Why is government prone to idolatry? Because governments only exist through law, and law is inherently religious. Behind every law is a judgment, and ones values are based upon their theology or religion. It’s the nature of government to perpetuate itself. Have you ever seen a politician who didn’t want to be re-elected, or a political party that did not want to stay in power? Every one of them are willing to do anything to keep themselves in power (John 11:47-48).

    Government is power. Government is authority. And corrupt, depraved men, instead of exercising dominion over God’s creation for His sake, desire dominion over men for their own sake. What did the crafty serpent say to Adam and Eve? "Ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5). Who is it that has control over men? God does! If man believes he is his own god, or if he believes he is some kind of god, then he will exercise control over men in order to prove it.

    A king rules by his law. Likewise, God rules by His Law, and His Law is the Word of God. Jews obeyed their king, Caesar, and killed those who did not obey their king (John 19:15). True servants of Christ honor Him by obeying Him (Luke 6:46, John 14:15), not by substituting man-made requirements in place of his.

    Thus, in law, the human lawmaker becomes a god by determining for himself which of the many theories at his disposal he will apply to his next act on behalf of "the people." Of course, this means that every other law-maker has an equal "right" to apply his theories to the acts he does, and the only answer to the resulting chaos that comes out of the compromise between theories is that one man must impose his will on all others so that one "coherent" view will control the end result. This means, clearly, a dictatorship and nothing less will do.

    So, what is a bondman of Christ to do when the government rises against him in judgment? We shall condemn them, because this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord (Isaiah 54:17). Do we obey governments that produce unfruitful works? No! We are to reprove and rebuke them (Luke 17:3, Ephesians 5:11, 1 Timothy 5:20, 2 Timothy 4:2, Titus 1:13; 2:15, Revelation 3:19). We are to cast down the spiritual wickedness of anyone who exalteth himself against the knowledge of God (2 Corinthians 10:5). We are to bind the kings of the earth with our mouth (Psalm 149:6-9). To not keep God’s commandments is defined as to "go and serve other gods, and worship them" (1 Kings 9:6, 2 Kings 17:37-38, 2 Chronicles 7:19,22, Jeremiah 16:11; 22:9, Deuteronomy 7:4; 8:18; 11:28; 28:14; 30:17; 31:16,20, Joshua 22:22).

    For anyone to assume the power of directing our comings and goings, and not leave us to scripture alone, is declaring the Word of God to be defective and insufficient for that purpose. And, therefore, to those who walk contrawise, our Lord Jesus Christ (who has left us the scriptures for that purpose - 2 Timothy 3:16-17), did not know what was necessary and sufficient for us. All those that impose their will against a bondman of Christ as the bondman walks in His ways are guilty of rebellion against God, because to reject a servant of God is to reject God himself (1 Samuel 8:7). If one's walk is under the direction of any man made authority, they cease to be under the direction and authority of Christ.

    A minister of Christ is to receive his directions from Christ alone. No other power or authority may be admitted, and no laws or doctrines may be taught, besides those that He has taught. Everything else is of men only, and no part of Christ. What is taught by any man, and not confirmed in Scripture, is not of God. No man can make laws to oblige the Christ's assembly but Christ himself. Christ’s assembly does not exist on paper, but in the hearts of men, and is expressed in their outward acts (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19-20, Acts 17:24-25, John 4:23-24).

    As Law is the basis of all government, the war to be fought, and around which all the issues revolve, is around the Law of God (Revelation 12:17). Only by a compromise of its unchangeable standards can the followers of Christ Jesus find "social respectability" (John 15:18-20). We must stand firmly for Truth and must not compromise with evil (2 Corinthians 6:14). And what is God’s definition of Truth? God's Law is Truth, and all of God’s Commandments are Truth (Psalm 119:142,151, John 17:17). And what is God’s Will? God’s Will is his Law written in our hearts (Psalm 40:8).

    When our brother Paul was accused by the Jews of persuading men to worship God contrary to the law, the courts of law of the Roman Government refused to judge religious matters, because they recognized they had no authority to judge in matters of "religious freedom" (Acts 18:12-16), as did the governments before Christ (Jeremiah 38:4-5).

    There is not one time in scripture where Christ ever submitted to the Roman Imperial law. Period! He said his true family are not his blood relatives, but only those who "shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 12:50). Jesus Christ, nor any servant of God for that matter, has never, ever, never, ever said anything about doing the "will of man on earth", only the "will of your Father which is in heaven."

    ...continued...
     
    #18 sojourner4Christ, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  19. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ New Member

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    Example #1: There were three kings (the king of Israel, the king of Judah, and the king of Edom), marching out to crush one of their enemies, the Moabites. While in the desert, they discovered there was no water for anyone (2 Kings 3:9-12). So they asked a prophet of the LORD, Elisha, to help them out. But in 2 Kings 3:13, when the king of Israel asked Elisha for help, "Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee?"

    In other words, Elisha said, "I am a servant of God, you are not! I’m not going to do anything just because you’re king!" Elisha is going to serve God, he’s not going to serve even three kings. One king has the power to cut off his head. Elisha went up against three kings and said "go to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother." Elisha understood that they had a different calling, and a different approach to religion. But the king of Israel pleaded with him and said, "...the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab." In other words, these kings and all their armies are going to die! This is a life and death matter.

    This cuts to the heart of Elisha and he decides he will do something. In 2 Kings 3:14, Elisha said, "As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand..." This is the key! It is not because Elisha is of a lesser rank than these three kings, or because he’s scared to death that they’ll kill him if he doesn’t do what they say, but "As the LORD of hosts liveth" before whom he serves. And Elisha says that if it wasn’t for the fact that he respected Jehoshaphat, the king of Judah, he wouldn’t even look at them or notice them! Now, Elisha is absolutely telling them where it is to their face, because they don’t follow the laws of God, but king Jehoshaphat alone does have that reputation (2 Chronicles 17:3-4). So for his sake, he helped and saved them all.

    Example #2: In 2 Chronicles 16:7, the Lord cursed king Asa with wars (verse 9b) because he relied on a "king" (government) and made a mutual agreement (license, contract) with him (verse 3), instead of relying on the Lord. He also trusted physicians (verse 12).

    There will be those who may be thinking that we should "obey all government authority." It is agreed that we should obey that government instituted by the Spirit of God in Christ Jesus; but not a usurper or pretender to His Throne. Remember what our Father has told us:

    Hosea 8:4, "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not."

    Our Lord taught us to resist evil when he said, "turn the other cheek" (Matthew 5:39). Resist evil and it will flee from you (James 4:7). We are not taught to overthrow the government, but to throw the wickedness out of government. We are to overthrow that which is ungodly and wicked by speaking the truth, and establish in its place that which is godly and holy. The only lawful government is that which governs according to God's Word.

    There is no command in the Word of God to confess the State to the glory of the State:

    Romans 14:11-12, "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee [*including governing authorities] shall bow to me [*not to ungodly men, i.e. politicians], and every tongue shall confess to God [*not to legislators, lawyers, and judges]. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God [*not to the State, or men working for an ungodly government]."

    Philippians 2:9-11, "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus [*not the President, Governor, or the State] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [*not the State, or men using the artifice of the State] is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him [*not for self-willed men]:"

    Proverbs 17:15, "He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD."

    Luke 17:21, "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you [*not on a sheet of paper with man-made codes, rules, regulations, ordinances and statutes]."

    The 20th century is the most violent century in recorded human history. Most of the violence has been committed by "governments." Most of the violence committed by "governments" has been against innocent, non-combatant civilians. Most of the violence committed by "governments" against innocent, non-combatant civilians has been against "their own" citizens, not external "enemies." Man-made laws make criminals out of honest folks (Isaiah 5:20), and these same laws reward criminals today.

    The true bondman of Christ know the State is not God and that it must be controlled by laws rigidly defined according to Scripture. Even the heathen knows that all the laws of the State must conform to God’s Law:

    "Any law contrary to the Law of God, is no law at all." Sir William Blackstone
    "God alone is the lawgiver of eternity". Judge Henry Clay, Crimes of the Civil War, 1868, pages 428-432.

    "The law is from everlasting." Bouviers Law Dictionary, 1914, ‘Maxim’, page 2143. (Psalm 90:2; 93:2; 145:13).

    The Law of God is not private law, but universal Law. His Law speaks to offenses that affect the collective body and soul of all mankind. All are part of the whole, and all suffer when the Law is trivialized, ridiculed, and worst of all, replaced with an inevitable inferior invention of man's 'reason'. Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me;" (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23). Therefore, any government that is not for Him, or is neutral, is against Him.

    Mention obedience to God's Law (substance), and many "Christians" accuse you of being a 'legalist'. But the very ones who call us a legalist are themselves true legalists to every code, rule, and regulation (form) that Caesar passes. "Legalism" is to adhere to the "form" and not the "substance" of law. They obey Caesar's will without taking any thought as to whether it is right or wrong. They do it blindly, and that's blind faith in a false saviour. They themselves are 'legalists' to Caesar's laws. They fear man and keep his commandments, for they believe this is their 'duty'. Well, let's have God tell us the conclusion…

    Ecclesiastes 12:13, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

    Notice, we are to fear God (not man) and keep His Commandments (not man's commandments), because this is the whole duty of man (we do not have a duty to any other except God). The only thing we owe to man is "to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law" (Romans 13:8).

    God will judge those in governments, especially those that act as gods themselves by teaching contrary to God's Will:

    Wisdom of Solomon 6:1-8, "Hear therefore, O ye kings, and understand; learn, ye that be judges of the ends of the earth. Give ear, ye that rule the people, and glory in the multitude of nations. For power is given you of the Lord, and sovereignty from the Highest, who shall try your works, and search out your counsels. Because, being ministers of his kingdom, ye have not judged aright, nor kept the law, nor walked after the counsel of God; Horribly and speedily shall he come upon you: for a sharp judgment shall be to them that be in high places. For mercy will soon pardon the meanest: but mighty men shall be mightily tormented. For he which is Lord over all shall fear no man's person, neither shall he stand in awe of any man's greatness: for he hath made the small and great, and careth for all alike. But a sore trial shall come upon the mighty."

    Remember, the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If men would "obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29), this world would be a much better place.
     
    #19 sojourner4Christ, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  20. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    We're living in the U.S. not ancient Israel. As such, we are subject to American law. If we are morally opposed as Christians we can work to change the law or we can choose to disobey it. If we do the lat6ter, we should expect punishment through our judicial system. We should not force non-Christians to obey Biblical laws. In the same way, American Muslims should not force us to obey their Muslim laws. Everyone is free to worship their own god or none at all. That's called freedom of religion. As Christians, our overriding objective is to further the Kingdom of God. Do we do that by changing American laws? No. We do that by acting in a humble, subservient manner and loving our neighbors. We should demonstrate to everyone our Christianity through our love shown towards our fellow man. We should also share the gospel with anyone who is willing to listen.

    Is it Christian to hate abortion providers or those who support choice? No. Is it Christian to hate those of other religions? No. Christianity is not characterized by hate but rather by love. Those who support hatred in the name of Jesus are non-Christian.
     
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