Lazarus

Exactly----it was the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ that "made" Lazarus alive---the Lord Jesus SPOKE ---- and Lazarus obeyed!!!!

Actually---it goes deeper than that---the life that Lazarus was living when he came OUT of the tomb was NOT his life---rather---it was the Lord Jesus who was speaking life into Lazarus---just like at this very moment---He is speaking His life into YOU!!!

Lazarus was receiving LIFE from the Life Giver!!!!

 

Amen...hence Jesus being The Way, The Truth and The Life. The regeneration occured AFTER Christ spoke, not prior. This same principal applies to spiritual death, too.

 

They eventually decided to kill Jesus, but not only that:

John 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death.​

HankD​

 

Do you think Lazarus was loosing any sleep over that death threat????:type:

 

No but the chief priests were losing sleep over live Lazarus.

HankD

 

Where in Scripture are the "clues" that make you so certain that Lazarus represents "the Old Testament saints being raised to earth into the MK", that Martha represents "the OT saints who were too busy with their rituals and the temple to realize that Jesus had come, or that Mary represents the tribulation of the Jews? Why do you imply that Jesus was weeping only for Mary, not from the fact that Lazarus, His friend, had died, and not for Martha? John 11.5 tells us that He loved all three:

Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.

​

 

It is true that Jesus spoke to Lazarus (and to the others whom he resurrected). I don't think words were required, though. Power flowed from Jesus without his having to speak words (as in the woman who touched the hem of his garment).

The main point is that Jesus gave Lazarus life. With words or without. Lazarus did not will himself alive. He could not will himself alive. He was made alive. Until Jesus made him alive, he was not coming out of that tomb, nor was he able to want to come out. My analogy stands.

 

I have never seen a non calvinist here that believes man can will himself alive. That is a strawman that I wish we could put to rest for good.

Your answer contradicts what you said prior. You earlier stated that Lazarus had to be regenerated IN ORDER to hear, respond to Christ, as that is the stance most calvinists take in regards to spiritual death, too.

 

Hi, David. :wavey:

Dr Rogers used a "salvation template" when he pointed out the 7 sign miracles. I thought that, John being the prophet of The Revelation, would be even more sensitive to prophetic signs and a "prophetic template" than in explaining salvation in 7 different ways.

Thus I began to see if that was so or not. In turning water to wine, He revealed His own future marriage feast (Mt 22, Rev 19). So in the 2nd miracle, when He is returning to the site of the first wedding feast and a man comes up from Capernaum to ask Jesus to come down and save his sick son, my thoughts start to see that the "sign" is of the church age. In it, Jesus needn't come down to heal us. Instead, when our prayer/father reached Him, He heals us immediately.

The others follow. From your questions, I assume you would like me to deal with Martha and Mary. And what do we find that relates Martha to unbelieving Israel and Mary to believing Israel? Mary "picked the more necessary thing" when Jesus came. This will also hold true in the tribulation (re: Zech 10 and 12:10 where I believe the remnant/144,000 will see and worship Jesus - Paul being their counterpart "born out of season" - but the rest will not).

Timewise, Jesus comes to Martha first who goes and tells Mary. That is Mary's knowledge is informed by Martha's (NT by OT). As to Lazarus -- there is coming the day when Jesus will resurrect Israel to earth (Job 19:25:28, Isa 26:19-21, Psa 50:3-5, Ezek 37:12-14, Mt 13:44, Mt 25:14-30, etal.). Personally, I believe the 144,000 may be resurrected midtrib as "firstfruits" of that event -- resurrected into bodies of "terrestrial glory" that don't procreate ("virgins"), righteous (take their sins away), unable to be killed by the 2nd death (live through the GT).

Those are my thoughts after much study. Hope they are appreciated. You might also see why I don't buy the Calvinist "salvation template" on this one -- it wasn't the primary purpose for which Jesus did the miracle IMO.

skypair

 

Amy, this is "scoffing" -- dismissing out of hand what you don't understand.

And I don't suppose they did think of the MK -- until John had chosen certain events to be "signs" of Christ's "program" till His return.

skypair

 

scoff1 –verb (used without object) 1. to speak derisively; mock; jeer (often fol. by at): If you can't do any better, don't scoff. Their efforts toward a peaceful settlement are not to be scoffed at.
–verb (used with object)
2. to mock at; deride.
–noun 3. an expression of mockery, derision, doubt, or derisive scorn; jeer.
4. an object of mockery or derision.

I am not scoffing. Certainly not at God's word. I am disagreeing with you. The text is plain as to why Jesus raised Lazarus. There was no hidden meaning as you claim. But that is my opinion. I should be able to have an opinion without being accused of scoffing.

 

I think it is a good analogy for what happens in conversion, Don't you?

 

Obviously not :laugh:

One doesn't have to be made alive in order to respond to Christ. If one passes from death to life, there is nothing to respond to, as God has already granted life.

 

I think it's better than an analogy. It's a good description.

 

This is Pelagianism.

 

This is garbage.

Man doesn't become born again, made alive...so he can be made alive. Plenty of calvinists don't believe in regeneration prior to faith (they at least get that right), and I doubt you would call that pelagianism or them pelagianists.

 

I don't see a contradiction. We both agree that it was Jesus who made Lazarus alive. We both agree that Lazarus responded to Jesus' command to come out of the tomb, and it occurred after Lazarus had been made alive.

If I understand correctly, you simply don't see this as analogous to salvation. Still looks like a pretty good one analogy to me. Of course, I would.

 

Webdog says: "One doesn't have to be made alive in order to respond to Christ."

Then I guess a person can come to Christ on his own---This is Pelagianism.

 

TC, Tom, npeterly ---- Lazarus was dead body, soul, and spirit.

The nonregenerate man (all of us) is only "dead" in his soul. His spirit (mind, emotions, and will) still respond to stimuli every moment! That is NOT dead.

And, of course, the body is not "dead" yet like Lazarus. Most are growing stronger every day until age 40 or so.

Therefore: 1) you cannot say that 4-days-dead Lazarus was saved as we living beings are. 2) You cannot say that we are thrice not even twice dead (soul and spirit). Calvinism hasn't made provision for you to know the truth on this issue but it is "the SOUL that sinneth, it shall surely die."

You are expressing another man's words -- not God's words. So like the woman who said "Blessed is the Calvinist of whom you were birthed and gave sucked in his theology." I would say, "Yea rather blessed is the person who knows God's word and does it."

skypair